The New PGE Discussion Thread

[Cireus]

I just finished reading all the manga to date, and I have to say that I think this is my absolute favorite manga (hard pressed to say, being the InuYasha devotee that I am, buuuuuuuuuuuut) ...

This manga is just ... wow ... For anyone who loves offbeat comedy (Sunako-chan rocks, plain and simple), there is so much more to this story than first meets the eye. I laughed out loud sooooo many times, and there were a few sniffles, too ...

The Kyouhei arc when his past is really delved into and you see how badly it hurt him to have been cast out by his mother because she couldn't take the attention he inadvertently drew was just sad

It's an interesting take on "beautiful people" and the prejudices that they have to deal with, too. Unique problems, to be sure, and yes, they are quite overblown here, but the point is clear: it can be difficult even for those who are considered "beautiful".

So grab this manga and read it today!!!!!

Cireus-Scanlations Online Manga Reader (http://cireus-scanlations.cireus-anime.com/) <--- Click to go there!

Since the first thread has quite a bit of "spam" as far as just posting to thank the scanlation team, I've decided that it was time to start a new one. If you want to thank Cireus-Scanlations, please do so HERE! (http://forum.cireus-anime.com/showthread.php?t=6787) If you want to read some of the interesting discussion that's already gone on, you can find that thread HERE. (http://forum.cireus-anime.com/showthread.php?t=355) Please use this thread ONLY to discuss the manga, but have lots of fun!!

[HMR1]

Thanks for this new thread ! ! ! I think it's a great idea ! :)
I like to read again the discussion posts, and it will be easier this way...

So, let's discuss again ! ! ! :D
About the chapter 85...

About Kyouhei...
I thought it was very interesting that Kyouhei didn’t seem too bothered by the idea that Sunako-chan was “fighting” for the right to be his girlfriend. I mean, he just acted completely normal …

Well, at first I thought that if he didn't protest it was only because as the girls said, it was his stomach that was talking as he was starving, and that it was the only reason why he run to see the cooking showdown... The same by the end, when Sunako is happy to have done dishes for a week and to have a bonus, he's full of joy too because he knows that he's going to eat as he get used to... (which hasn't been possible since they're broke because of the meat...)
But when he says this sentence about Sunako's actions : "Aren't you guys over-analyzing it ?", the guys are mistaken and think he's a disappointed guy in love... But I agree, he doesn't protest too much : it's a small "That's not what I meant"... He didn't try to make them change their mind...
And if this guy talks with his stomach, isn't a sign that even he just said that he hates the vegetables, he's eating those of Sunako... and with such a face's expression ? ? :o Can it be only because they're mixed with shrimps ? All he ate was tasty, made by the best cooks of the school... If those dishes didn't delight him, can't it be because he didn't see in them a special intention to him ? ? ?

About Sunako...
and then Sunako-chan? I really found it fascinating that she was told a few times, what she was being challenged for, and she didn’t really argue it, either. Of course, it can be argued that the “Iron Chef” thing at the end was just her and her vast enjoyment of cooking, but … but she did cook FOR Kyouhei (chopping up those veggies), didn’t she?

I'm not sure that she notice that was a fighting for the right to be his girlfriend... It's the guys and Noi who interpret it to the "Kyouhei's sake"
The word that stung her thought was "challenge"... She didn't relieve the "girlfriend thing"... It's one of the Sunako's contradictions : she considers that she's inferior and doesn't live in the same world that the "radiant creatures" (have you noticed that she doesn't use this vocabulary here, while the girls ask her how she dares pretend to be the girlfriend of this superior bishounen...), and at the same time she never gives up in a challenge (the most of time it was against Kyouhei... I find interesting that she's going to compete with other people).
And it's amazing how she's happy with the different activities... Is it because every girl is paying attention to her ? ? ?
But I agree with Cireus : she cooked FOR Kyouhei... It was a cooking challenge to show the best cook of school. Kyouhey wasn't intended to be a judge of the competition. He has invited himself... So, did she take unconsciously the girlfriend thing in consideration ? ? ? Or it was only because she was thinking to bring home all the dishes she did (she did a lot in comparison with the others girls) and didn't want to hear this loud boy after ? ?

He ! He ! He ! And I can't help thinking that the mangaka winked at us a lot...
She puts in the mouths of all the characters (girls, Noi and the guys...) all we want to hear about Sunako and Kyouhei... It can't be just to tease us... Not a so cruel joke, nee ? ? ?
When the girls say : "they really suit each other", who doesn't think so ? ? ?

But this food arc isn't finished... Waiting now for the chapter 87... :sly:

[Cireus]

Those two ... Sometimes I think that Sunako-chan is entirely too dense. Then again, fighting for them is like words of love to others ... :lol:

[Dante]

I read ch 86, I haven't even seen ch87, if you're waiting for it...I wanna see it ^^

[HMR1]

Well, I just saw the RAWS... It's a "shrimp story"...
And I think it's a kind of diptych with the chap. 86 about Kyouhey's feelings...
As you said Eien, in the chapter 86, Kyouhei seems to realize their feelings (whaaaa.... :o), and in the chapter 87, he's doubting about them... Eien, by the past, we already asked you to see, and you gave us a good hint ! ! ! :hug:
It seems that he does one step ahead, two back...
The question is : is he doubting because Sunako is too dense and doesn't make any sign towards him ? ? ?

[Cireus]

I read ch 86, I haven't even seen ch87, if you're waiting for it...I wanna see it ^^

Umm, it's in the scanlator's forum in the PGE raws thread... ... ...

Back on topic, please. Thanks.

[PGEfangirl9]

Yeah, I think Kyohei is realizing his feelings but Sunako is too thick to even notice them (yes, I believe they're there!) but eh, it's funny, to see them get SOOOO close to realizing them (or so we think) and then we just get our hopes thrown back in our faces. AAHH, that mangaka really knows how to pin our fangirl's little hopes up and throw them back down. Kyya`~ *big sigh*
About the "shrimp" chapter. I found some Chinese raws and my friend (who's Chinese) said that at first, Kyohei thought he really was in love with Sunako (he kept envisioning her with a plate of shrimp) but then he realized, he was thinking about the shrimp, not Sunako so if that's true, then we're really just back to square one ):

[HMR1]

Aaah, this idea just cross my mind about Kyouhei...
He doesn't like vegetables but he eats those of Sunako...
He doesn't like Green Tea Ice-Cream, but he eats the Sunako's one...

I know, it's all on my head... ;)

[PGEfangirl9]

That is actually pretty true. Huh, I never noticed that until you said it.

[HMR1]

I connect what I said about Kyouhei and food with this comment of Cireus...
Then again, fighting for them is like words of love to others ... :lol:

It's a kind of understatement, no?
Kyouhey says : "I don't like", "I hate", but his actions show that he loves - even by just teasing her...
I think he can't say it because of Sunako... I think we all agree about her biggest unconsciousness of her feelings...
But they really suit each other, no ? In this chapter they are so involved in their fight at the beginning, and in their common joy at the end, that they hardly pay attention to the others and their comments

And it's always this oppostion between appearances and reality... :o

[freko_frika]

but but!!!in chapter 86..well based on the raws

kyohei suddenly hugged sunako.he felt something when he watched some lovey-dovey drama in the tv...that has gotta mean something right??haha
then again,i'm just basing this on my own assumptions since i just saw the raws,not translated though...there is a high possibility that i might be wrong again...huhuuu

:sly:

[HMR1]

Yes... And Eien gave us a lot of hopes about the c86... :o
We were talking about the next, the c87...
It's why I said one step ahead, and two back...

[Registration]

Hehe, chapter 85...They really do seem to have a great connection to food, huh? But, it's kind of a bonding thing, and even the characters said it makes them suit each other.

Kyohei and Sunako are both seriously oblivious, or in denial. Maybe they just don't want to like anyone? With the thought that Kyohei might have realized it...I think the desire to ignore any kind of romantic feeling lies mostly on Sunako's end. And if she ignores it, wouldn't he?

From HMR1:
In this chapter they are so involved in their fight at the beginning, and in their common joy at the end, that they hardly pay attention to the others and their comments
Haha, yeah! I find it hilarious and rather sweet.

[Ginoru]

Wouldn't it be that even if they realize their feelings they try to ignore them because neither like to feel dependant on anyone?

[HMR1]

Hum...
I really don't know...

About Sunako...
Sunako is solitary, but she's contradictory...
It's true that she hardly asks something... Now, I just can remember of two times... One when she asked the guys to turn her into a lady to please to her aunt : The path to becoming a lady, c36...
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/hmr1_bucket/36-28.jpg
And a second when she wants to go to Harajuku, c63, Onobori-san to Go :http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/hmr1_bucket/63-05.jpg

But in the other hand, in the c72, Takenaga's honor, when Takenaga was brought back to his father's house, she's able to say : "he is a part of our family". http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/hmr1_bucket/72-31.jpg
She really pays attention and cares to all of them, as she cooks in a special way because of Kyouhei...
I think that if she looks for loneliness it's because she feels she's different from the others (they live in opposite worlds as she says...)
So, is it :
- because she doesn't want to be dependant on everyone,
- or because she's afraid of it,
- or because she thinks that no one will pay attention to her and she mustn't have any hopes about the others ?

About Kyouhei...
Well, he doesn't care about the most of people because they only see his angel's face and try at some point to harass him... But he cares about the guys... When he's at the hospital, he hugs Takenaga (c30, A Weird Chat in the Cold)... http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/hmr1_bucket/30-06.jpg
And I think that in another chapter, he does the same with Ranmaru... They are the only ones he trusts... as we know he trusts Sunako... He knows her pretty well...
For example, in the c45, Sunako is champion :
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/hmr1_bucket/45-32.jpg
I think there is really a difference between Sunako and Kyouhei... Sunako seems totally unaware of her feelings... And for me, it's why Kyouhei reacts this way... What can he do ?
Doesn't he look/act like a child ?
He always teases her, he's loud, (shouting "I don't like/I hate this/that..."), he comes to her bedroom to borrow her horror DVD, he eats her ice-cream, etc... Isn't that a plea as he was saying : "Hey, pay attention to me !"

[Kaylachan1990]

I pretty much agree with what HMR1 said, which is why I think the progression of their relationship is happeneing slowly, but one in awhile BOOM, something big happens, yet they just puch it aside, like it didn't happen or it was a game, but deep down they know what is really happening and what thye are feeling. Also from what I have read here and seen from the raws of the next few chapters, I think Kyouhei is starting to get tired of this little 'game' of theirs, but since Sunako isn't ready to do this yet, he is getting confuse as to what he should be doing.

P.S. if that didn't make sence I apologize since it is my first speculation post on this forum.

[PGErox]

Hmmm..

I found some Chinese raws and my friend (who's Chinese) said that at first, Kyohei thought he really was in love with Sunako (he kept envisioning her with a plate of shrimp) but then he realized, he was thinking about the shrimp, not Sunako so if that's true, then we're really just back to square one ):

*HUGE sigh* I was really frustrated when I read that, but then,, as a matter of fact, I do not blame Kyouhei for thinking this way -___-"
I mean, yeah, everytime something heart-warming happens... and then we finally find out the we got tricked and the reason behind it is just plain food, money, or personal safety... there are some exceptions like the time he kissed her which only means that he loves her but...*ARRRRG*... however, Kyouhei didn't bother to explain why he did that.. X/.. I've had my lesson, never let your hopes wander in the sky especially when reading PGE XP

He always teases her, he's loud, (shouting "I don't like/I hate this/that..."), he comes to her bedroom to borrow her horror DVD, he eats her ice-cream, etc... Isn't that a plea as he was saying : "Hey, pay attention to me !"

EXACTLY,, XD
and the funny thing is,,, she does pay attention to him.. even though it's in her own way... after all, she did chop those veggies in a special way so that he won't recognise it.. =)

come to think of it... how did she know that it's for Kyouhei ? ? !!
I mean, yeah, the other girls said that it's a competition to claim the place of Kyouhei-Kun's girlfriend.. but it seems like she didn't hear that...
but later, she did cook those veggies so that Kyouhei could eat them.. it looks like she knew that the meals were for Kyouhei, right ! !.. just HOW COULD THAT BE ? ? ?
could it be that she actually heard the girls when they mentioned the "girlfriend" thingiee, and did not care??!

or is it becuase she had in mind the task of preparing food for the Nakahara mension's "family" and she was used to cook this way so they all "including Kyouhei" would eat??

or is it just because she just like to chop down those veggies to let go of her anger and show off her powers =P

*sigh again* the depressed me will head bag-wards to scribble something in that math's notebook.. hoping that it would be right =P... well, ttyl =)

[HMR1]

Oh yes, our hopes tricked us so many times ! ! :doh:

We know that Sunako cooked FOR Kyouhei, the only thing unknown is why she did it !
Kyouhei wasn't supposed to be a judge in the contest and someone recalled it at the beginning when he appeared in the cooking showdown : "Takano has no influence here!", But at last, he succeeded and when the contest started, he was sat with the others judges...
http://cireus-scanlations.cireus-anime.com/cache/Yamato_Nadeshiko_Shichi_Henge_YamaNade_v21_YamaNad e_v21_c085_%255BCireus%255D_YamaNade_v21_c085_p079 .png.small.jpg
So, in one hand we could think that she cooked in this special way to win, and then, the question remains : why does she want to win the contest ?
But in other hand, it doesn't seem that she cooked deliberately for him... (I mean conciously). When the girls asked why Kyouhei prefers her dishes, she exclaimed "Ah, I see !" and justified after "It's a second nature..." as it was just an habit...

I think that there are two revelations in this chapter :
- the first is that Sunako always cooks considering how manage what Kyouhei likes and dislikes... After, the reason why she considers them is still a mystery ! ! ! :gee:
But we can remember the c54, Thinking and thinking about chance encounters, when Kyouhei doesn't eat the dishes of Sunako because he eats everyday in a restaurant to help the owners... She wonders what is wrong with her food... and she is not satisfied when Kyouhei eats to calm her : "You eat against your will" And at the end of the chapter, we learn that she needs that people enjoy her dishes :
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/hmr1_bucket/54-36.jpg
So, even if she is pragmatic (as in the c82, The Japanese New Year) it can't be only to avoid the shouts of Kyouhei and to be in peace...

- the second is about Kyouhei... How tasty can be the food, it isn't enough to delight him... The dishes of Sunako are the ones... I can't think that it's only because she's the greatest cook, able to "conceal" the vegetables among shrimps... Maybe, I'll over-interpret here, but I connect this fact with what happened in the chapter 34, Paramount Restaurant, when the guys worked in the French restaurant for the Golden week... The guys are fed up about French food (*sigh...* ...lol...) and want Sunako to cook for them, but Kyouhei doesn't eat...
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/hmr1_bucket/34-31KTruth.jpg
The word "unwillingly" stung my thought : so, after this chapter he may know that she cooks for him...

[cynsny]

Just a quick thought.
I think she may have gone into this planning on making a weeks' worth of food for at home. She asked straight up if she could use all the food there and she did. And when she left she announced that was food for the next week or so. So, she was cooking for Kyohei.

[Dante]

I think she was cooking for the whole gang, but since Kyuhei is the picky eater, she just accomodates him so she won't have to hear his mouth ^^

[HMR1]

I agree with Cynsny that she cooked for the next week. And it's why she as Kyouhei (!) were so happy to bring back to home all those dishes... My question is still why does she manage the liking and disliking of Kyouhei ?
So Eien, when you say that she did only to not hear the shouts of Kyouhei, do you mean usually ?
I confess that if she cooks this way everyday to avoid his shouts it matches well with the current actions of Sunako (it's why the c82 broke my heart ! :lol:)
But I can't really admit it (yes I'm still a girl full of hopes...), because of those chapters 34-54 and also because of the c42 Winter Wonderland, when Kyouhei wants to sit around a kotatsu... Kyouhei goes with the man of vegetables' stand :
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/hmr1_bucket/42-25.jpg

We'd probably could think, if she buys carrots, so she doesn't about him ?
But Sunako loves cooking, she gets totally involved in her cook... and she's happy if people likes what she does...
So, I'm still dreaming... and I know that I haven't so much arguments here... So, I'll stop ! :D

[Cireus]

I think she did it just because she planned on keeping the food she made. We just saw Kyouhei's response. I'd imagine that she'd have won with any of the boys, but they didn't do any sampling.

[PGEfangirl9]

Ah, how we let our fangirl's hopes run away with us (: Well, I guess Sunako would want to make sure everyone enjoyed her cooking since it's like, her passion (:

[PGErox]

Hmmm.. yeah, I think it was for the other fellows living with her too =)

as for why she usually cooked in a special way for him to eat,,,

like HMR1 mentioned in her previous post, she hates it when people "not only Kyouhei" doesn't seem to enjoy what she cooked, so I don't think she only keeps Kyouhei in mind when she cooks, she does this so that he'll eat as well as the others "they don't seem to be picky and they usually eat everything".. anyway, like what was prevailed in ch85,cooking is the only thing she manages to do well.. -___-"

so I guess, the fact of her cooking only for Kyouhei is gone with the wind, right?? >.<" *sigh* I knoow I said I wouldn't raise my hopes.. but, well, raising our hopes once in a while is OK, right?? =P

anyway.. how many chapters / volumes are left ? ? is this known yet??... =]

[cynsny]

The manga is still being printed. Picked up chapter 94 last week.

[Muraki]

I was thinking that it's quite normal for Sunako to not realize she has feelings for Kyohei (if that's the case). If there will be any sentimental development in her, it will be a sudden realization, just before the end of the manga. Wouldn't make her admit feelings for a guy or realize slowly she feels something, be really lady like? She's not a lady now.

[HMR1]

The fact that it would happen at the "end" seems probable...

I just wonder what will be the end ?
After what Cynsny said, the graduation of the characters also appears as a possible end ? ? ? :confused:

Personally, I can't believe in the "lady achievement"... well, I mean not a lady like auntie... as I can't imagine Kyouhei, this rowdy boy and bad mouth loving this type of lady... :nonono:
For me (what I'd like to see...), everyone may accept Sunako the way she is, and she may be reassured herself and not feel inferior anymore...

[cynsny]

Just to make sure... It's just a guess that they would be graduating soon. The managka has said nothing about passage of time, though it obviously has. The mangaka may insist that time has stood still, if so they could still be 15. I don't think that's the case, but since we have not seen birthdays and such, time may have stood still. My calculations are only guesses. IF time has not stood still they should be exiting high school, but I'm only guessing based on what I understand of the Japanese school system.

[Cireus]

She's said in the mangaka box in chapters before that she hasn't aged them. I can't remember which one she said it in, but she has. She said that she hoped no one noticed.

[HMR1]

Sorry to change the topic and to come back to food again... :thwap:
I just read again the c79, Capture the Princess, and then I think that PGEfangirl9 and PGERox are definitely right...
Well, I guess Sunako would want to make sure everyone enjoyed her cooking since it's like, her passion (:
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/hmr1_bucket/79-06.jpg

Sunako is proud that the guys enjoy her dishes and says "I made it myself with all my love". She really needs to know that they like what she cooks... And as the guys start to talk about western food and specially "croissants", she begins to get interested, even if personally she doesn't like viennese pastry...

The next pic confirms what PGERox said...
She hates it when people "not only Kyouhei" doesn't seem to enjoy what she cooked, so I don't think she only keeps Kyouhei in mind when she cooks, she does this so that he'll eat as well as the others "they don't seem to be picky and they usually eat everything".. anyway, like what was prevailed in ch85,cooking is the only thing she manages to do well...
so I guess, the fact of her cooking only for Kyouhei is gone with the wind, right??

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/hmr1_bucket/79-07.jpg
She totally ignored the desires of Kyouhei...

And Kyouhei, then, got depressed... Me too...
One more time, too much hopes... :cries: *sigh*

NB : After in the chapter, she lightly accepts to marry the prince if he learns to her how to bake the bread, - a bread that Kyouhei doesn't care at all...
Is he just pissed to be ignored ?

[PGErox]

back again :D

She's said in the mangaka box in chapters before that she hasn't aged them. I can't remember which one she said it in, but she has. She said that she hoped no one noticed.

great :D this means she isn't willing to age them.. which would mean they aren't graduating and therefore separating :HMR1:.. I can't think of Sunako attending university.,, it's just seems, you know,.. weird,, especially for us readers.. after all, we DID read her "days" for a whole 4 years and high school =P... LOL ! ! we really talk about them as if they were actual real people, nee? =P

..... EXACTLY HMR1 ^.^

NB : After in the chapter, she lightly accepts to marry the prince if he learns to her how to bake the bread, - a bread that Kyouhei doesn't care at all...
Is he just pissed to be ignored ?

Hmmm.. when I thought about it, it just looks like Kyouhei is pissed for everything.. so it's really hard to tell ^^"
he could be pissed for the ignorance,, eating western food for a long time,, OR the fact that he's in love with the loveless her :nonono: =P but anyway, as you mentioned before, he's just behaving like a kid.. and a kid would be REALLY pissed off when ignored,, =]

I've been re-reading the chapter where Kyouhei is terrified from the girls who were saying that they were his girlfriends "sorry, forgot the chapter's number -.-".. I was wondering,, what would it be like if he really GOT a girlfriend.. would Sunako be jealous ? ? will she remain so clueless ? ? what would she DO ? ?... I know this sounds a bit dreamy,, but it could happen >.<"...
and also vice versa,, what would Kyouhei do if Sunako got a boyfriend,,like if that guy who caused the "ugly scene" returned and apologized for what he did and begged Sunako to go out with him so hard and the kind her agrees ? ? ( though that's a bit hard to believe as well -___-")... but I was just wondering about the future turns and twists of the story =3 << yeah yeah dreamy me ;]

[chubba]

Hello! (edited)

First time here posting, but I've been reading these forums for ages.

I think you all probably know this by now, but there are Chinese raws up on this chinese manga site. I read chapter 86, and am currently reading 87

:o

I WAS loving chapter 87 until I discovered the ending

that moment on page 30-34 were amazing, probably the best I've seen yet.

Stupid Sunako :irk:

I am confident that where the manga is now, Sunako is slowly letting down the wall in front of her.

I think she's finally realizing her true self.
:pile:

I'm kinda pissed at Kyouhei though right now.

Don't ask why.

:thwap:

[Cireus]

In the advance reply, it is the big red S square. Highlight what you want to have under the spoiler tag and click that button. If you're too lazy to do that, then you just use the BB codes [spoiler ]your spoiler here[/ spoiler] without the spaces.

Please edit your post. Spoilers are fine, but some people (like me) would rather not read them. Please mark them as such. :)

[HMR1]

LOL ! ! we really talk about them as if they were actual real people, nee? =P
What ? They do not exist ? ? ? :lol:

I was wondering, what would it be like if he really GOT a girlfriend... would Sunako be jealous ? ? will she remain so clueless ? ? what would she DO ? ?... I know this sounds a bit dreamy, but it could happen >.<"...
and also vice versa, what would Kyouhei do if Sunako got a boyfriend, like if that guy who caused the "ugly scene" returned and apologized for what he did and begged Sunako to go out with him so hard and the kind her agrees ?

About the first alternative, I'll say that Sunako will only act weird (I'm not sure about the term I may use... Jealous is too optimistic ! ! !), if it affects her way of life... For example, if Kyouhei starts to not eat because he'd be in love... (like in the c54, minus he wasn't in love...)
For the second alternative, I think we can see what happened in the c45, Sunako is a champion, when a classmate asked to Sunako to protect him... It's not really clear...
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/hmr1_bucket/45-12-3.jpg
When the guy asks to Sunako to be his friend, Kyouhei blushes and seems happy... But after when he hears that the guy wants to be "like Sunako", he's against him...
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/hmr1_bucket/45-14-5.jpg
Kyouhei seems to be against this friendship because he doesn't see anything positive in... It would only consolidate Sunako in her dark world... He seems worried about her...
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/hmr1_bucket/45-19-24.jpg
Is he only worried, or at the same time jealous ? ? ?
We can wonder nearly the same about the prince in the chapter 79 : is he only bored or at the same time jealous ? ? ? Like "why him and not me?"

About the chapter 87,
i WAS loving chapter 87 until i discovered the ending that moment on page 30-34 were amazing, probably the best i've seen yet and then stupid sunako but i am confident she is slowly letting down that wall and opening up just look at her face at the end of 87
i think she's finally realizing her true self
i'm kinda pissed at kyouhei though right now

The logic of Kyouhei in this chapter is really curious... As I already said, it's the kind of thought that I use to expect from Sunako and not from Kyouhei, and I think it's the Sunako's fault in the c86...
So, if Kyouhei starts to act really weird... have you already imagine that it would be Kyouhei who fall in the dark world, and not Sunako who will accept the radiant one ? ...lol...

I change the topic, and come back to the chapter 84, about the "dead meat" we were talking about... This expression was really good, and just wanted to remind that it appears in the c02 when the school makes a contest to have a pic of Sunako's face :
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/hmr1_bucket/02-64-65.jpg
... the possible dead meat is Sunako ! ! ! ! !

[PGErox]

yeah ! ! looks like they'll never get any other companion, and even if they did.. the other won't show his feelings about that, not to the other one anyway -.-"

I change the topic, and come back to the chapter 84, about the "dead meat" we were talking about... This expression was really good, and just wanted to remind that it appears in the c02 when the school makes a contest to have a pic of Sunako's face :

... the possible dead meat is Sunako ! ! ! ! !

lol yeah ! ! the dead meat was definetely Sunako in the begining.. but looks like the roles has been shuffled now... Kyouhei had been the dead meat in those past chapters..and Sunako only had a problem with him because of his "radiance" which seems like she doesn't recognise anymore.. =)

So, if Kyouhei starts to act really weird... have you already imagine that it would be Kyouhei who fall in the dark world, and not Sunako who will accept the radiant one ? ...lol...

Hmmm.. looks like he came from the dark world to me, ^^" (except that he doesn't keep anyone like Josephine in his room =P).. I mean, yeah, he's good looking and take care of his appearance "well, that's not mentioned anywhere so I'm not sure =P" but he also likes to be in Sunako's "dark world" he isn't afraid of her (except in the very begining) and he likes to accompany her when watching those gross movies she likes.. he's not so into girls and stuff boys his age are into..

he actually seems like he is like Sunako... but he never pays attention to it.. and neither do the other guys and girls around him.. they only care about his appearance and some even harassed him..

could the end be that instead of turning Sunako into a lady.. or at least accepting the "real" world... Sunako absorbs Kyouhei into her world and then they would both end in the dark world, leaving the other "radiant creatures" behind ? ? lol, I'll never accept the ending if it was this way -__-"

[chubba]

could the end be that instead of turning Sunako into a lady.. or at least accepting the "real" world... Sunako absorbs Kyouhei into her world and then they would both end in the dark world, leaving the other "radiant creatures" behind ? ? lol, I'll never accept the ending if it was this way -__-" :roflmao I think even though Kyouhei seems to have no problem hanging around in Sunako's world, he won't go as far as to completely immerse himself into such and environment. Remember, even though Kyouhei can get along with Sunako's interests, he still doesn't agree with the reason she fell into all that gory stuff. And he hates how she always seems to divide herself from the outside world, eg, calling them 'radiant' is a good example of how much Sunako discriminates herself from others. Kyouhei wants Sunako to see the world as a whole, not divided and separate. I doubt that kind of ending though. But you never know what the mangaka is capable of pulling off. It might be something completely unexpected...
I'm not hoping for a 'lady-like' Sunako, rather a Sunako that has broken from the chains which have kept her down all this time.

Kyouhei may be the key....

But that's just what I think


Can't wait for Chapter 86~~

Even though I'll be sorely dissapointed :sobs:

***********************

Just read Chapter 88, I have no doubts that one day, Sunako will never nosebleed again in the presence of Kyouhei
She's getting bolder and bolder as Kyouhei pushes her more and more forward I've noticed

And she's becoming more concious of him, I'm sure of it

Kyouhei's feeling are definite, so now its up to Sunako to realize for herself...

Yay!!! I love this manga, minus the nosebleeds and food!!!


By the way, I've always wondered about this but is the mangaka a male or female?

Have they published any other manga?

And does anyone have any confirmations of what the latest chapter is? (or what chapter is definitely coming out?)

Thanks~~

Just curiously, is Eien Blue the only translator for PGE???

[Cireus]

ADMIN NOTE: Do NOT double post. You can edit your post if you forgot something. I merged your posts this time.



Ms. Hayakawa (female) has written quite a few manga.

Dengeki Love Machine
Kirei na Otokonoko
Kirei ni Nareru H
Motetaku Nai no
Ousama no Tamago
Risou no Kao wo Motsu Otoko
Yamatonadeshiko Shichihenge
Yamatonadeshiko Shichihenge the Best
Zokuzoku Shichauno

No, Eien Blue is not the only translator for this. skdo normally translates every other chapter, though in the future, please direct all questions regarding the scan team to the scanlation forum.

[HMR1]

Hmmm.. looks like he came from the dark world to me, ^^" (except that he doesn't keep anyone like Josephine in his room =P).. I mean, yeah, he's good looking and take care of his appearance "well, that's not mentioned anywhere so I'm not sure =P" but he also likes to be in Sunako's "dark world" he isn't afraid of her

Oh yes, I think he takes care of his appearance... I can't remember but I think I read that he uses hair gel...
Plus, when it's needed to preserve his interests, he knows how to be charming... I think he really knows how to provoke some effect... :o But the most of time, he doesn't want...
In other hand, I guess he values his things... To resume in one pic :
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/hmr1_bucket/Handsome.jpg

could the end be that instead of turning Sunako into a lady.. or at least accepting the "real" world... Sunako absorbs Kyouhei into her world and then they would both end in the dark world, leaving the other "radiant creatures" behind ? ? lol, I'll never accept the ending if it was this way -__-"

:roflmao I think even though Kyouhei seems to have no problem hanging around in Sunako's world, he won't go as far as to completely immerse himself into such and environment. Remember, even though Kyouhei can get along with Sunako's interests, he still doesn't agree with the reason she fell into all that gory stuff. And he hates how she always seems to divide herself from the outside world, eg, calling them 'radiant' is a good example of how much Sunako discriminates herself from others. Kyouhei wants Sunako to see the world as a whole, not divided and separate. I doubt that kind of ending though.

Yes, I'll be pretty disappointed with this kind of end... and I agree that Kyouhei wants her to accept that they live in the same world...
And yes, Kyouhei shares a lot of common tastes with Sunako... Even in the first chapters, he's not afraid to enter in her room... He is the first to do so... It's only when he sees her screaming or acting weird, that he is really afraid...
But even he has the same tastes, Sunako doesn't recognize him as belonging to the dark world... He's the perfect radiant being... So, I wonder : even if Kyouhei would try to enter totally in her world, will she change her point of view about him...
The other thing I wonder, it's what she thinks about "dark guys"... We have seen that she is really friendly with her classmate in the c45, and with the Prince in the c79... She immediately wants to be friend with the first one, and she accepts what the prince suggests without thinking one second...
Is in her mind a "dark love" possible ? ? ? :gee:

[Ginoru]

I have always thought according to "darkness" that Kyohei is much more a being of darkness than Sunako, he has had a much harder life and has a "pesimistic" side very pronounced while Sunako despite claiming she belongs in the darkness has a much more possitive insight towards things. She is the one able to encourage Kyohei when he's down even if it just by competing with her.

Regarding those "dark" guys.. all of them have proved not suited either to be really called dark or to hold a decent position against Sunako ;)

[PGEfangirl9]

Cireus, could you please tell me what I asked in the post you deleted (: I've forgotten and I'd like to ask the person that question (:
Anyway .. I'm glad she's not aging them. And I agree with whoever said that Sunako is just going to be herself but realize she's a beauitful person, inside and out and not inferior to the "dazzling" creatures. And fall in love with Kyohei, if she REALIZES it (:

[Cireus]

ADMIN NOTE: You posted ONLY to ask someone about their avatar, which is not something that pertains to the general discussion of the manga, nor does the questioning of me belong here, either. In the future, PM people when you want to ask them questions. (Gee, I could have SWORN I said that when I deleted the post in the first place ... O.o) If I need to warn about this again, I will issue an infraction.

[HMR1]

I have always thought according to "darkness" that Kyohei is much more a being of darkness than Sunako, he has had a much harder life and has a "pesimistic" side very pronounced while Sunako despite claiming she belongs in the darkness has a much more possitive insight towards things. She is the one able to encourage Kyohei when he's down even if it just by competing with her.

I agree that Kyouhei had a harder life... and still has... He was and always is harassed by all girls on earth and a lot of guys... Until now, he has been rejected by the most important person for him, his mother, and had to leave his house for her sake... Her father was working overseas...
And now, the girl he seems to love has just one thought in mind, avoid him !
Sunako lived happy with her parents until they went to Africa... What broke her was the rejection by this guy in the middle school... then she chose to live in the dark world and found some peace because no one tried to disturb her... Even the guys who want to turn her into lady don't blame her vision of world...

But I don't agree about that Sunako is more able to encourage Kyouhei than the contrary... When you look for what they say to each other, the words of Kyouhei are always deepest... Maybe he says them in a rude way, but he makes Sunako's actions change... Sunako is really dense and focused in her world...

Regarding those "dark" guys.. all of them have proved not suited either to be really called dark or to hold a decent position against Sunako ;)

Yes, maybe they weren't fit for the role ! :lol:
But I wonder if the idea already crossed her mind... She only dreams about love for her dolls... Does she think that she's able to fall in love again ?

[chubba]

Sunako lived happy with her parents until they went to Africa... What broke her was the rejection by this guy in the middle school... then she chose to live in the dark world and found some peace because no one tried to disturb her... Even the guys who want to turn her into lady don't blame her vision of world...

Yeah, I think Sunako is an extremely delicate person....when she was constantly thrown around like that with her parents moving to Africa and the rejection, she could only hide herself; or rather protect herself so she wouldn't have to face it again

She isn't very resilient, unlike Kyouhei who has constantly put up with so much that is a lot worse than what Sunako experienced

I suppose that's why he is so frustrated with her and her reasons for choosing darkness...she doesn't truly know what its like to be put through real pain

Sunako may look tough, but I honestly think that deep inside, she is extremely delicate, which brings out the real 'girl' in her...

Or...so I think

Oh, and sorry about the double post Cireus.....My bad, I only accepted the forum rules a couple of minutes ago, so before that I had absotootly no idea

Sorry about that >_<

And sorry for the lack of full stops and overusage of ellipses...

[Cireus]

You're fine, chubba. Everyone does that at some point, and it wasn't a big deal. :)

I don't agree, though, with your assessment of Sunako-chan not knowing what real pain is. (I'm not saying you're wrong; I just disagree lol). I think she does know. For a girl, having the guy you really, really like say something like that would be very painful. She chose an extreme, though, in her reaction, opting to reject everyone else before they could reject her. At least, that's how I see it.

Yet she does show depth of character. Her reaction to Kyouhei's feelings often could be attributed to being a somewhat awkward 15 year old girl. The guys, in a very real sense, are conditioning her more than they're changing her. They're teaching her how to deal with them in the extreme, and yet we do see how fiercely loyal she can be, as when she asks Takenaga's family to give him back because he's a part of THEIR Family, or the way she puts herself out there to make the traditional table that Kyouhei so wanted so they could have a traditional Japanese dinner.

Kyouhei is just ... louder. LOLOL

[HMR1]

I don't agree, though, with your assessment of Sunako-chan not knowing what real pain is. (I'm not saying you're wrong; I just disagree lol). I think she does know. For a girl, having the guy you really, really like say something like that would be very painful. She chose an extreme, though, in her reaction, opting to reject everyone else before they could reject her. At least, that's how I see it.

Yes, Sunako felt real pain... And we all imagine how traumatic is for a girl of 15 years old, who just found the energy to confess to her first love, to be rejected by this boy and most of all to be called "ugly"... I connect it with the social pressure about the "ideal woman"... Her aunt who is a beautiful woman was her model... We can imagine that she felt that she will never be like her...
She lost all the confidence she could have before...

Kyouhei is just ... louder. LOLOL

Kyouhei complains a lot : about harassment, or lack of money... And of course, he's loud towards Sunako : "I don't like this"/ "I hate that"... "This is mine"...
Sunako complains about the "dazzling world"...
But we don't really know what feels Kyouhei... Because he doesn't talk about and the mangaka doesn't show him to us (or really rare times) as she shows us Sunako with her soul-searching... I just can think about two chapters. The first when the guys remembered when Kyouhei came into the mansion. We know that he had lost all confidence in humans (he asked auntie if she had sold him...). The second when he went back to his house...

Ginoru said that Sunako was positive and Kyouhei pessimistic...
I'm not sure about that... Concerning themselves, I'm not sure Sunako is more positive... There are domains where Sunako is self-confident : cooking, fighting, looking for dark things... But she hardly does something different or something where she will be exposed (go to a trip, to a matchmeeting, swimming...). Often she is driven to... She hasn't overcome her trauma and she still feels inferior.

The guys, in a very real sense, are conditioning her more than they're changing her. They're teaching her how to deal with them in the extreme, and yet we do see how fiercely loyal she can be, as when she asks Takenaga's family to give him back because he's a part of THEIR Family, or the way she puts herself out there to make the traditional table that Kyouhei so wanted so they could have a traditional Japanese dinner.

Sunako is a good girl... :D I want to say that Sunako and the guys are nearly taming both... and they're changing all...
All the guys take care of Sunako and not only because of the rent... When they feel bad, each one goes see Sunako to talk...
They all give proofs of love to each other... What is disturbing with Sunako is that it's intermittent. Her logic breaks so many times my heart ! ! :lol:
But, when it's really important, she is there as she was to make Kyouhei or Takenaga come back.

[koolperson]

Chapter 86 was awesome!!

the best part was definitely the "I'll protect...." line
hahah and then later on he even got embarrassed about it!!
Its still crazy that he still hasn't realized his feelings and it took him this long!!

but I mean we all know this wont last between these two :cries:

[PGErox]

it's been pretty quite here huh??

I always wanted to know what he said when he hugged her *puppy eyes*
although he didn't say I love you -.-" ... but what he had said was quite good for a person with a personality like Kyouhei's...

we all know this wont last between these two

yeah :nonono: in the next several chapters, that wouold be the condition.. but can we help raising out hopes inorder for something to heppen in the near future ?? .. I know i can't =P although I have been trying.. but come on.. how can Sunako resist those eyes of Kyouhei's.. seriously,, I think I have fallen in love with him instead =P j/k

LOL yeah I've liked the "I'll protect..."line.. though it didn't end quite well.... YO, teasing is baaad dear mangaka =P

just what did Kyouhei mean by "that chick.. is she stronger than me...?"
as in the "muscular" area as she had stopped a statue from falling ? ?
or did he mean it in the emotional way.. as in she's not affected by the harassing she's getting ?..

Hmm come to think of the "emotional thingie".. why is Sunako ignoring the fact of being called Kyouhei's girlfriend "AGAIN" ? ? ... and kyouhei is the one who seems more bothered.. or actually.. the only one annoyed when her name is mentioned as his girlfriend..??

[HMR1]

just what did Kyouhei mean by "that chick.. is she stronger than me...?"
as in the "muscular" area as she had stopped a statue from falling ? ?
or did he mean it in the emotional way.. as in she's not affected by the harassing she's getting ?..
Ah, interesting... I haven't thought about your second alternative... I just thought about the first one... He's always impressed by her skills to fight... And she has won many times against him...
And about the statue, yes, I guess she was avoiding it... So many accidents happened towards her... (as said Takenaga, girls are scary... :lol:)

Hmm come to think of the "emotional thingie".. why is Sunako ignoring the fact of being called Kyouhei's girlfriend "AGAIN" ? ? ... and kyouhei is the one who seems more bothered.. or actually.. the only one annoyed when her name is mentioned as his girlfriend..??

What I didn't understand it's why she was always saying that it was not Kyouhei's fault, when obviously it is since what he did in the c84... :gee:

Plus the last sentence of Kyouhei is not really clear for me...
What did he mean by : "Until now I had no choice" ? ? ?
Did he mean that no one pleased to him or that he was only harassed and he only could flee... but now he chooses a girl he loves ?

[razzler]

I know!! What is up Kyouhei and Sunako? Can't they just make up their mind.

But I do have a theory though,
Maybe Sunako, deep down the inner recesses of her heart, likes Kyouhei but with all "I am ugly" trauma, maybe she just doesn't think that falling in love is a possibility ever again....Or is it just me

[PGErox]

Hmmm yeah,, why is she insisting thet it's not Kyouhei's fault eventhough it's defenetely his.. :gee:
after giving it some thoughts..I managed to find out that :: she didn't bother to think about the girls who were after Kyouhei in the first place.. is it that she's STILL clueless about the situation she is in now "as Kyouhei's girlfriend" and that she doesn't even know what had happened ? ?

<< I know this sounds a bit stupid even for a girl like Sunako.. but it could happen, right ?

heeey Razzler =D

Maybe Sunako, deep down the inner recesses of her heart, likes Kyouhei but with all "I am ugly" trauma, maybe she just doesn't think that falling in love is a possibility ever again....Or is it just me

hmm.. never thought about this, but hey.. this is a possiblity.. although this could happen inside her brain without her even recognising it.. after all, her thoughts are been delivered to us and she didnt mention this "ugly" thing again after the meeting with that guy who started it.. but it can still be true =)

What did he mean by : "Until now I had no choice" ? ? ?
Did he mean that no one pleased to him or that he was only harassed and he only could flee... but now he chooses a girl he loves ?

hmm.. he says MUCH weird and ununderstandable things... when I first read it i thought he meant the 'Sunako and the jealous girls' situation.. as he had no choice and couldn't do anything to stop them "without getting a violent response from Sunako anyway" so he decided to leave her alone but then after seeing what had happened, I guess he chose protecting her "well, before the statue stopping =P".. but who knows,, this Kyouhei guy is really mysterious .. =/ you can't estimate his movements -.-"

[merrique]

In my point of view, I really think both Kyouhei & Sunako are in denial. If you think about it, people around them, well, feel the chemistry between these two and they have been vocal about it like Noi-chi, Oda, Yuki, Ranmaru, even Aunt & Sunako's dad... Somehow, they might get what these people are saying but both play ignorant on this matter (See ch 82).

Whenenever Kyouhei protected Sunako, somehow you can feel that Sunako is starting to waver, though she ends up in a massive nosebleed and/or fainting.

I think Sunako is not really oblivious that she's attracted to Kyouhei. I really think she's not that stupid or dense because she has already felt this kind of attraction to that guy that hurt her (it might not be as strong as what she feels for Kyouhei but still it would her an idea of what that means at the very least), but I think she chose to shun it away or try to ignore it and so she appears to be oblivious so people would not press these issues to her or she's just afraid to get hurt with the inferiority complex she felt towards "radiant beings".

While in Ch 86, it seems Kyouhei just realized it, having no experience in love. But Kyouhei has this reflex to save and protect Sunako ever since they first met. So there's something subconscious going on here that's quite hard to explain.

Anyway, I think it's only a matter of time to break the shell...

[HMR1]

I think Sunako is not really oblivious that she's attracted to Kyouhei. I really think she's not that stupid or dense because she has already felt this kind of attraction to that guy that hurt her (it might not be as strong as what she feels for Kyouhei but still it would her an idea of what that means at the very least), but I think she chose to shun it away or try to ignore it and so she appears to be oblivious so people would not press these issues to her or she's just afraid to get hurt with the inferiority complex she felt towards "radiant beings".

Yes ! ! Thank you ! ! ! :D
When I read you I connected your words with what happened in the c02 when at last she cut her hair...
When you look the chronology of events :
- the school makes the pictures' contest
- at home, the guys ask her why she doesn't want to cut
- Sunako explains that she turn that way because she was rejected and called ugly
- Kyouhei says that if it's the reason, she's stupid
- At school, he saves her from the high schoolers
- she has a nosebleed and faints
- then comes the temptation...
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/hmr1_bucket/02-24.jpg

... the temptation to leave the dark world...
Isn't it because she :
- trusts what said Kyouhei ?
- she already feels attracted and wants to please him ?

So, it seems that since the beginning she was aware of some attraction she had towards him... and that she did all she could to expel those feelings because of her inferiority's complex ? ?

[Muraki]

I just finished reading cap 87 (thanks again for that!) and I couldn't spare me a shiver. Maybe I'll be damned for saying this but....
Seeing Kyohei and Sunako like that just seemed WRONG! Especially Kyohei, he was really out of character and looked like a freak:poke:. Maybe the mangaka wanted to play on this, how boring and disappointing would be a "shoujo manga" ending.
Am I the only one to think this way?

[Cireus]

I have to admit, I'd have been a little (no, maybe a lot) disappointed if Kyouhei suddenly started acting "normal" (ie, all lovey-dovey) ... I'm rather pleased that he's showing his block-headed-ness.

[koolperson]

I agree.. it was weird..

but does anyone think the ending showed some development on Sunako's part? like if she feels pretty she is not too intimidated by Kyouhei?

[HMR1]

Kyouhei was so pitiful, no ?
So thin, and not dazzling at all, in comparison with the other guys... I can't imagine him imploring and kneeling down as he was...
Did you notice that when Kyouhei and Sunako met, when he looked at her (two times), she was dazzling ?
I mean it's probably because of the love question tormenting Kyouhei : the mangaka could want to express that he was looking at her in a different way... but I couldn't help myself to think that she was dazzling also because she was confident and didn't fear to show herself... Even more after reading her last questions... Didn't she wear herself ?

[Muraki]

Yes, I'm quite sure it's a matter of confidence, but I don't think this cap shows any development in the plot.

[hollieshort_girl]

Chapter 87's ending was a bit of a killer for me...

I kind of wish the ending hadn't been with fried shrimp. The end for chapter 86 was pretty funny, what with Sunako punching Kyohei and all. I'm also not sure how Sunako's real reflection could differ so much from the girl that Ranmaru set up. She's not that plain, after all...

In response to Muraki:

As for relationship developments, I do look forward to their eventual 'getting together' one day. The fact that a romance is underway does not automatically turn a manga into a shoujo. Besides, PGE's main characters are so different from the ones in most shoujo manga (which is also the reason why I've stuck by it for 20+ volumes; for most shoujo I just half-heartedly skim through oneshots). Since there's been so much hinting at a relationship, I'd rather have it come sooner or later. It should be all right, so long as neither Kyohei nor Sunako turns into a stereotype. The author's been great about the whole thing so far; I'm sure she will come to a compromise that will satisfy both shoujo haters and romance shippers alike.

[Muraki]

Hmm, maybe I'm wrong, but from your comment (hollieshort_girl) it sounds as if you were bothered by my comment. If that's the case, I apologize.
Anyway I think you misunderstood my words. I really like shoujo manga, romance, sap and similars (I saw Gone with the wind something like 100 times -.-), but Hayakawa-sensei got us used to a different kind of romance, not so shoujo-manga like, and it would be kind of disappointing if suddendly Kyohei or Sunako started acting like...Ranmaru all the time...don't you think so? ^^'
I'm also waiting for the happy ending, but I expect it to be a DIFFERENT ending. I hope for Kyohei and Sunako to start dating, well, they're talking about it since vol 1...who wouldn't? °_° (ah, but I even know that there's someone who doesn't like this couple and it's ok).
In the end the point is: the good part of this manga is perhaps that even if the story revolves around love and romance, we enjoyed it until now only because thet DIDN'T achieve it.
I was not the one to misunderstand and speak randomly ^^'

[Dante]

I kinda lost hope they'll ever actually get together and date. I just think the mangaka is just milking for as long as she can, and pointlessly draggin the manga. I hope that I'm worng and we get some development soon, I can't take much more of this beating around the bush ^^

[PGErox]

well.. same here Eien -.-"
hope we're wrong but looks like that's the truth...
I mean, a whole 20+ volumes revolving around 4 couples where 2 of them have been already together since a really long time.. and the other one is kinda hopeless and doesn't show much..
the rest of them "the Sunako and Kyouhei one" is the only one we've been reading since forever.. I'm starting to get frustrated as there's not even the tiniest pint-sized development.. well, there could be.. as Sunako gets self actualization in some chapters but in the very next chapter it looks like she've lost it all,,, AH *sigh* I'm getting tired of this...

well, sorry for my disappointing reply, but I had to write this somewhere or else I could burst =.="

NOW, lemme get into the spirit of PGE =P

I may be quite different, but I kinda liked the romantic Kyouhei, yeah, he was weird.. but I won't mind it =P
his words were deep ^^'

hmmm, the last part where Sunako says that when she thought she was beautiful she went to Kyouhei's room.. so what Kyouhei saw was actually true =).. and what Ranmaru said was true too, that she didn't want to feel love again as she thought she was ugly and no one would glance at her.. but when she felt she was actually beautiful, she went to Kyouhei's room, for some certain reason that isn't prevailed but it has to be that she has an attraction towards him and wants to be loved by him and she also knows that she won't be turned down as she's "now" beautiful -.-"

it kinda hit me now... why didn't she have a nosebleed when kyouhei was so close to her .. yeah, she was scared but then, it's like she isn't affected.. this Sunako sure is complicated ! !

[HMR1]

hmmm, the last part where Sunako says that when she thought she was beautiful she went to Kyouhei's room.. so what Kyouhei saw was actually true =).. and what Ranmaru said was true too, that she didn't want to feel love again as she thought she was ugly and no one would glance at her.. but when she felt she was actually beautiful, she went to Kyouhei's room, for some certain reason that isn't prevailed but it has to be that she has an attraction towards him and wants to be loved by him and she also knows that she won't be turned down as she's "now" beautiful -.-"

Yep, she had confidence... She wasn't afraid to enter in that room...
And it's interesting, connected with the beginning of the chapter... She is totally mad... She says "I won't forgive him". Why is she so furious ? Because she thinks that he is harrassing her or because he's making fun of her ?
Whatever, when she thinks she is beautiful, she forgets that she just said to want to "lead a quiet and secret life" and she dresses herself... When she goes to his room, she apologizes... So, she has changed her mind : Kyouhei didn't make anything wrong... (embracing her is not wrong ? ? ?)

About self-confidence, I connect that with the next chapter 88,
Even, if she had a long dark blanket to cover herself, she wore the bikini...

Plus, what about the dark world ?
Sunako wonders : "Was I always this pretty ? Is it a recent thing or is it hidden beauty ?"/ "I'll look one more time to confirm it. There's no way that I do something that scary again."
Sunako is doubting because she is supposed to be ugly... But during the time she thinks she is pretty, the dark world never crosses her mind...
If she is pretty, she is also a radiant being, no ?
At last, when she looks again in the mirror, she says :"I was deceived", and then she asks herself : "When I thought I was pretty, I wasn't happy ?"... No consideration about the ugly ones that can't be associated with the dazzling ones... Only those questions about her happiness and her confidence ("I went to that man's room")

it kinda hit me now... why didn't she have a nosebleed when kyouhei was so close to her .. yeah, she was scared but then, it's like she isn't affected.. this Sunako sure is complicated ! !

Yes, it's surprising... Well, Kyouhei is a bit pitiful in this chapter... He feels really down... But I can't help thinking that it's because she doesn't feel any inferiority...

[cynsny]

Actually, on the four couples, no one has been together for a long, long time. Takenaga and Noi, are a couple but are not close, there is a chapter about them coming up in 89. Yuki and Machiko while they seem to be the "closest" couple, Machiko is not very confident in the relationship. Yuki tries to comfort her, but she can be a bit grouchy. Those two couples have been in existence since the beginning of High School.
You have Sunako and Kyohei, we all know how that's going. :o
Ranmaru and Tamao have been on the back burner so to say, the parents have been trying to make a match for him and is hasn't been going well.

[Dante]

Cynsny, I'm going to change your member title to SPOILER QUEEN!!! I already am afraid of that Yuki chapter coming up, I was hoping I didn't get, but since I'm the nly one doing PGE now, I know that at leat have "that' to look forward to.

[cynsny]

I behaved, I did not say a whole lot. Just teased a little. You can only imagine the trouble caused, but I have not divulged WHAT happened. ;)
Maybe I can make amends and get some stuff this weekend if I can sneak away from hubby and kids.
Is dealing with Ranmaru a bit better? I went all pervy on Yuki that one time. Since that, I have been quiet on my attempts! :o

[HMR1]

No comments about the chapter 88 ? ?
I just read once, so these are sparse thoughts...

First of all, I feel that the chapter 87 has destroyed a lot of our hopes... In our minds, we were already so far away, neeee ?
The mangaka still plays with the opposition between internal and external focus about the thoughts of her characters, and the «evolution» of Kyouhei in this «shrimp chapter» was awful...
I think that until now the most of us had the feeling that at least one of those two was walking on the path of conciousness of love... Sunako always seemed dense, deeply locked in her logic and dark world but Kyouhei seemed to act in a special way... So, only illusions ? ? ? They really are at the same desperating level ? ? ?

About the chapter 88, I start by Kyouhei...
We find some characteristic attitudes... He doens't want to be involved with the guys because he thinks they are wrong about Sunako. Does it mean that until now, he didn't get himself involved only by selfishness ? ? ? I can't believe it... He feels unconfortable when the guys don't want him to say anything and forbid him to do a single thing (I must say that I particularly enjoyed when they called him «Moron», «Idiot» and laughed a lot...).
But did he do nothing ? When they all fainted (Sunako, and the guys...), he asked : «What should I do now?» and I wonder why he plays in the contest ?
Because he always needs money ?
Because he likes to tease and it's a good occasion to tease Sunako ?
And why does he say : «This chick might truly be an idiot ?» . He's sweating... Is it because all of sudden, she easily left the curtain (so, it's easy to manipulate her...) or because this unaware «idiot» is really pretty ? ? ?
But he doesn't call her more than «chick»...

About Sunako...
Sunako is like she always is... and somehow, it's being hard... She doesn't understand what the guys want, and her only aim is to come back to Tokyo...
But there are two things in this chapter that mark on me...
The first is that she can scary people a lot but... she is pretty... It's the first time that «normal» people notice and appreciate that... «She is pretty good even if she was the teru teru bozu»(her face in the hotel was so funny ! ! :lol:), «She even doesn't realize it»...
The second thing is about her anger towards Kyouhei... She is really surprised and disgusted when she realizes he participates in the contest... Her thoughts are really violent : «He must be a person... but he is heinous and inhumane... To this man... To this fucking man, I will not lose... I will definitely not loose...»
I ask : why is she afraid of competing with him ? She tends to win all the time... So, one more time this feeling of inferiority ? ? ?
And why does he appear more inhumane than the others guys who wanted her to play like high class ladies and put her in this situation ? ?
Is it because he doesn't concede when she is asking (and as I already said, Sunako hardly asks something to the guys...) ?

At the end of the chapter, we return to the point we were before the chapter 87...
Sunako is happy to have won because she is safe and can return in her world... As always, she didn't notice anything, and she has a massive nosebleed and faints because Kyouhei is really closed to her..
Kyouhei saved her one more time... Then everyone thrills and thinks he is in love with her... And he desperately tries to explain that's a mistake...

So, I wonder what was the aim of this chapter ?
To show us the way we got wrong all this time ? ?
And in some way it tends to confirm that Sunako won't change... It's people around her that may accept the way she is... But it's not satisfying because we also expected her to love again...
Or, in some way, the aim was to redeem Kyouhei after the disastrous chapter 87 ? ? Something like : look this poor guy, he's only lost...
Plus a lot... a huge of teasing by the mangaka : the sun, the beach, bath suits, games in the sand, one of most blurring situations between a guy and a girl... but absolutely no love... :sobs:
I'm dying now...

[Karol_lp]

When they all fainted (Sunako, and the guys...), he asked : «What should I do now?»

and he built a sandcastle :doh: :lol::lol::lol:

This Ch was a good laugh, but i'm also kind of tired of this game, Will we ever see a real progress? :cries:

[razzler]

someday i'm gonna kill the mangaka for always prolonging our agony.grrrr....

[HMR1]

and he built a sandcastle :doh: :lol:

This Ch was a good laugh, but i'm also kind of tired of this game, Will we ever see a real progress?

Yes ! ! ! I laughed so much...
But wasn't that also a diversion ? It was so surprising to see him in the contest when he was forbidden to do anything...
Did you see his confident smile when he says he wants the money ? ? I don't really get what means his look...

And about a real progress...
tI was so hard to see Kyouhei fall in this kind of logic... But everytime, it makes me doubt...
I think : where did I get wrong ? Where was I mistaken ? And everytime, I count the points I can concede to the mangaka... :lol:

And even so, I still have a lot of hopes... :doh:

I think the chapter 89 will be a solace to our fangirl hearts (ah, poor little hearts ! )

So, @razzler, be patient one more time... ;)

[PGEfangirl9]

I agree with PGErox, I liked the romantic Kyohei. And I really just think that the manga NEEDS to end soon. I mean, how long can you go on about Sunako thinking she's ugly, both of the refusing to see their feelings etc.. when there is already 90+ (in Japan)? And I do hope for a shoujo ending; Sunako realizing she should love herself, no matter what she looks like (I think her realizing she's beautiful is a bit too much). Kyohei not hiding behind his mask that his beauty creates, maybe getting back in touch with his family. And of course, them realizing their love for each other and a sweet, touching but not overly sappy scene. I know people always get put-out when there's not a kiss (I certainly did with Inuyasha, I mean, come on, she's gotta give us a little kiss after 500+ chapters but, oh, well :)) but I recently read a book where there were two beauitful, romantic scenes between the main characters and it was kiss-less but I still squealed (for anyone wanting to know, the book was City of Glass, the third book in the Mortal Instruments Trilogy, a favourite book series of mine). And I happen to think that Kyohei and Sunako don't need a kiss. But if there's one, then that's fine as well. So, just, yeah, I don't know how long the mangaka can drag this series out without it getting lifeless and old.

[Dante]

I think the chapter 89 will be a solace to our fangirl hearts (ah, poor little hearts ! )

So, @razzler, be patient one more time... ;)

I already tl'ed ch89, is my favorite so far I swear, I was like AWWWWW. We should get more chapters like that.

[HMR1]

I agree with PGErox, I liked the romantic Kyohei.
He, he, he... But was the romantic Kyouhei, the "real" Kyouhei ? ? (I'm just teasing ;))... I think his mind is a big mess... He was easily convinced by the guys, he spent a lot of time wondering if really he was in love, and he felt so relieved that were shrimps which pleased to him... He seems lost and afraid, no ?
And it's interesting to see how this food arc (c79 "the radiance of rice", c82 what kind of "ozuni", c84 the meat, c85 the cooking contest) ends in the c87... Sunako felt guilty and cooked shrimps for Kyouhei who was depressed in his room...
And I really just think that the manga NEEDS to end soon. I mean, how long can you go on about Sunako thinking she's ugly, both of the refusing to see their feelings etc.. when there is already 90+ (in Japan)? And I do hope for a shoujo ending; Sunako realizing she should love herself, no matter what she looks like (I think her realizing she's beautiful is a bit too much). Kyohei not hiding behind his mask that his beauty creates, maybe getting back in touch with his family. And of course, them realizing their love for each other and a sweet, touching but not overly sappy scene.
I guess that we're all waiting the end that you suggest... :D
But as you said, almost nothing happened in 88 chapters, it's hard to believe that all of those events can unfold in a few chapters...
About Sunako realizing she is beautiful, I have the feeling that the mangaka at the moment "is playing" with her character as she played with Kyouhei (remember : Kyouhei as an irresistible seducer, Kyouhei as a gentleman, Kyouhei as the perfect domestic man...). And for me she is exploring all the possible situations in the dark and "enlightened" worlds...
So, I see the current chapters this way :
- what if Sunako thinks she is beautiful ? (c87)
- what if Sunako dresses herself and plays like a "normal girl" ?(c88)
- what if she has a boyfriend ? (By the summary in the last release, I think it's the c90... And it corresponds to the c89 in the chinese RAWS)
- what if she meets a "real" dark male creature ? (by the summary, c91)
And through all those situations, she's still portraying Sunako...
So, just, yeah, I don't know how long the mangaka can drag this series out without it getting lifeless and old.
He, he... I think that it's now the most interesting moment !
I mean : after the deception of c87, how Tomoko Hayakawa will surprise us and stick us again ?
I'm sure she will ! ! !

[cynsny]

Wow! You have really done a bit of research on this. I totally agree on your observations. I think you are right about her "Playing" with the main characters right now.:sly:

[koolperson]

To be honest, more and more I feel like I have no clue what the ending of PGE will be....:confused:

Also, I feel like many fans are complaining about the past few chapters latley.. even my sister stopped reading :cries:
I mean it is okay to be annoyed by some stuff
but some people are really getting angry and claim that they are going to stop reading and stuff..

Sometimes I feel like people forget that comedy is a big part of this series.. :thwap:

[Cireus]

I have to admit, I didn't like chapter 89. The more I see Noi-chan, the more I dislike her. She's conniving and snarky, and the only times she feels badly is when she invariably hurts Takenaga. I'm very disappointed in her characterization the last few times I've seen her, and, well, I really hated this chapter--typesetting it and all :(

[Dante]

Waaai I actually liked it. A nice break from the Kyo/Sunako drama...that they don't know about ^^

[Cireus]

To each their own, right? I just don't like Noi-chan. At all.

[Muraki]

This chapter was really refreshing. But it looked like the mangaka is making fun of us saying: you will only see this kind of thing with these two, so...be content!
It's sad -.-

[HMR1]

This chapter was really refreshing.

Yep... I think too... :D
And about Noi/ Kyouhei...
Don't you find that Kyouhei was an easy victim to trick ? ? ? I mean he uses to be pretty smart and to understand better than the others the plans of Noi...
How could he bear all she did without any question ?
He was enjoying so much to make fun of her... The only way I understand that he accepted her false "kindness" is that he knew Takenaga would get mad...
Yes... I think Kyouhei IS evil ! ! ! :lol:

[Cireus]

I don't think he's evil. I think that he's getting fed up with Noi and her plots. Either she's calling him stupid and belittling him, making fun of him and teasing him about Sunako-chan, which is not a good thing to do, given the circumstances. A guy who's already a little awkward with girls who finds himself in love with the one girl who just isn't quite normal in her reactions? And Noi just rubs salt in the proverbial open wound. Noi-chan does it on purpose because SHE wants HIM to do this or that or to admit this or that, and really, she's doing more harm than good. At least the guys want him and Sunako to be happy. Noi just pesters, and I think that Takenaga should just dump her. She's manipulative and mean-spirited and she's only "sorry" when she HURTS Takenaga--which happens a lot. In fact, how many of the last Takenaga-Noi chapters have been centered on her selfishness and her childish ideas of what she wants and in the end, he's the one who gets hurt.

Yeah, that's a really healthy relationship. Glad it's just a manga and not real life.

[HMR1]

Whaaa... You are really angry against her... I can't help imagining Noi with octopus in the ears... :lol:
But if I can't imagine Noi that bad, your point of view makes me think...

And Noi just rubs salt in the proverbial open wound. Noi-chan does it on purpose because SHE wants HIM to do this or that or to admit this or that, and really, she's doing more harm than good. At least the guys want him and Sunako to be happy.
Yes, she did... But Noi also wants Sunako and Kyouhei to be happy... When she saw Sunako laying down, she said "wonderful", guessing that something happened... She is the first to say that those two will match together... And the first to say that there was nothing wrong with Sunako, that her only problem was her lack of confidence (see the chapter with the Princess, c43, Girl's Bravo !)... And she tried to make them go out in her "own way", and somehow, it's thanks to her, that their relationship changed a bit (see c74, That's the Dreamy First Love)...

She's manipulative and mean-spirited and she's only "sorry" when she HURTS Takenaga--which happens a lot.

Yes, here, she was really manipulative, to make Kyouhei get drunk... In the last chapter, c81, Who's Mr. Mori High, she locked the guys with video games to let Takenaga win the school's contest...
But I find mean-spirited too strong...
What is obvious for me is that the problem of Noi is also a lack of confidence but about her relation with Takenaga... She doesn't really trust their relation... If it was the case, even if Takenaga is shy, she will just ask to him...

But In fact, how many of the last Takenaga-Noi chapters have been centered on her selfishness and her childish ideas of what she wants and in the end, he's the one who gets hurt.

Yes ! ! And it's really the most interesting...
I mean : Noi has found her perfect man... And her imagination is full of "perfect moments" that she tries to make come true... And the way she does, they always fail...
The perfect moment doesn't exist... It's just an illusion... Because people are real and she can't only be centered in what she dreams...
It's always Takenaga who at last, creates by his own the romantic moment... :o

Maybe I'm too obsessed by the theme of appearances/ illusions...
But I wonder if the mangaka thought the pairings Takenaga/Noi, Kyouhei/Sunako as opposite types.
Look : Noi only thinks about is dreamt love/ Sunako gave up about love.
Takenaga is pretty shy but goes out with a girl... Kyouhei doens't fear anything minus girls...
And with a common point : Takenaga and Kyouhei are those who always save the situation...

[Cireus]

*edited ...

You know, forget it. I don't like her. I have my ideas, you have yours. I'm going to leave it at that.

However I must point out that she didn't say "wonderful" about Sunako-chan ... she said it because she was impressed with the place. She didn't say anything about Sunako-chan's condition.

[Dante]

*edited ...

You know, forget it. I don't like her. I have my ideas, you have yours. I'm going to leave it at that.

However I must point out that she didn't say "wonderful" about Sunako-chan ... she said it because she was impressed with the place. She didn't say anything about Sunako-chan's condition.

That is true, it was over the place, not the fact that Kyouhei has apparently 'realized' his feelings. She just made fun of him ^^

I didn't realize Noi is so coniving, I truly read very few chapters other than what I translate, and I haven't seen that many Noi/Takenaga moments. I do find them to be extremely different, and I guess that's a good thing, but I can't help thinking that Noi is a better match for Kyo or even Ranmaru, and princess is better suited for Takenaga...btw, where is Princess?^^

[Cireus]

I really shouldn't watch CNN ...

[Dante]

Kyahahahahahahaha that is funny Bromance

[silkendreammaid]

lol.. Cireus... thanks bra... : )

[kyoheixsunako]

After faithfully devouring PGE for 20+ volumes now, I've noticed that there is a certain pattern in which Hayakawa-san is writing the manga. It seems that there is always a break between "romantic" chapters starring Kyohei and Sunako- it always either stars one of the other couples in the manga (Noi and Takenaga, Ranmaru and Tamao, Yuki and Machiko) or food. Very rarely are there chapters of Oba-san besides the one where she wanted to become a "traditional Japanese housewife" :doh:

It's because of these random breaks that drags out the manga and makes the progress seem slower. I don't know if it is because the mangaka wants to expose us to the other aspects in the stories and develop the other chracters (not just Sunako and Kyohei), or if she just wants the relationship to progress slower (as if it is not already slow enough!?).

For whatever the reason, it really drags out. I sometimes feel like I am reading two (or five..or SIX lol) stories within the manga instead of one overall story. I really think the relationship between Kyohei and Sunako is finally getting somewhere, but is always stalled by these random intervals.

Ah, maybe I'm crazy...but every time I read a chapter not related to Kyohei and Sunako I just feel like crying :sobs:

[growthbeyondreason]

After reading Chapter 90 (By the way, thanks muchly to the Cireus team for the double release), can Kyouhei's love for Sunako be questioned?

I've just been rolling around, laughing and squealing in glee over this chapter. The amount of moments for Kyouhei and his 'unrequited love'!
How absolutely adorable is it that he bought chocolate for her?

When he says: Whoever that chick goes out with ain't my problem, I think he was taking for granted that Sunako just wasn't interested in boys.

He acted similarly with the first 'boyfriend' chapters and chapters ago. But this time, he actually likes her and does care.

When she doesn't react, we know what she's thinking about: Sarasara dude and the neighbour-girl, but Kyouhei on the otherhand thinks that his hurt her feelings! I loves it.

Also, is Kyouhei really dense? Sure, he can be KY at times but isn't he the one who has known how to best handle Sunako and her feelings and the one who has orchestrated the most growth in Sunako?

So when he hesitates to say or do anything isn't it rather that he wants Sunako to be happy whatever she chooses? Oh, it is love.

Ahh, man. It's been a while since I've been this excited about a chapter. I agree that deviation from Kyouhei and Sunako in the plotline means that it seems like it's much longer. But also...I... just never get into chapters on Noi or Machiko as much as I do over Sunako...:doh:

Did anyone else notice the Bleach reference for Chapter 90 as well?
*Also KY is some term they use in Japan that I've picked up from being some lame Japanophile, which basically means someone who can't read the atmosphere properly, acts out randomly without thinking...etc. ....I think.

I must ask, how fun was it to translate these chapters?


I'm aliveeee after all and back in the posting shazmatazz! Well, for a little bit.

[Cireus]

Well, I know that Dante HATED c90--LOATHED Sarasara-kun with a passion ... almost as much as I despise an-NOI-ing ...

I'm not sure how much fun ururumeru had with c91, but I had fun typesetting both ... and sorry; I avoid Bleach as much as possible, so I didn't 'get' any resemblance lol

[freko_frika]

i love both chapters!!well any chapter that involves the dense duo makes me happy..=)

the fact that Kyohei bought sunako chocolates to cheer her up (he thought she was sad) was just so sweet...aww
and in the other chapter he told her that she was okay as the way she is....
and the that scene in chapter 90 with the star constelations..the way he looked at her awwww

i want more sunako x kyohei!!
;p

[kyoheixsunako]

I have to admit, chapter 90 was definitely not what I had expected at all! When I read all the spoilers on the forums, I always got the impression that Sunako-Chan would fall in love with a random guy and that Kyohei, acting out of jeolousy, would gallop onto the scene at the end and take her away in his arms. Ahh swoon...but that would NEVER happen :nonono: He did bring her chocolates, which was so romantic, but still I wish they would have kissed or fallen asleep "under the stars."

The one thing I did not understand about the chapter was the "itching." What is that? Is he like scratching himself all the time or is it just the sound he makes when Sara-Sara san moves? Anyway, it was weird :thwap:

Chapter 91 was much better, it gave me more of what I wanted.
Ahh, the mangaka has allowed a PERFECT opportunity to show some evolution in Sunako...I really hope that she does not retract all the progress in the next chapter. I think that Kyohei's words "you're okay just the way you are" has made Sunako start reassessing herself and her character (at least, she looked that way). Also, did anyone else notice that SHE DID NOT HAVE A NOSEBLEED WHEN KYOHEI SAVED HER!?!? :HMR1: She usually faints right into his arms after getting all-deer-in-the-headlight like, but this time she just stayed relaxed!!

Ahh, I'm so bummed that the chapters have run out...but don't they publish them monthly in Bessatsu Friend??

[ururumeru]

sara-sara, to the japanese, is the sound that silky/fine hair makes..
it's used for the sound of paper or leaves too, so i guess in english it can be translated as rustle

[Muraki]

In my case, I liked chapter 90 much more. It showed more "romantic evolution".
Especially when Sunako is washing the dishes and thinks about the resemblance of Kyohei and the star-gazing guy's sentence, and the jealousy behind it *_*

[freko_frika]

i second that!!the awkwardness of it all makes it even cuter...
i just want the two to realize it already...geez...

[blurry_eyes]

I liked both chapters, but chapter 90 is much more giggling. Kyohei can't hide his feeling toward sunako this time. :happydance:

- after he said "whoever that chick goes out with, aint my problem ...", he seems a little bit shocked and worried with sunako's expression (no expression actually).
- When sunako said "Love is difficult, isn't it?", What with that expression, kyohei? Is that jealousy? :uhh:
- And of course, the chocolate thing. Kyohei is so worried, and come to sunako in a rush, with a lot of chocolates. How sweet...

It is obvious how kyohei's feeling. But how Sunako's?

[koolperson]

After reading Chapter 90 (By the way, thanks muchly to the Cireus team for the double release), can Kyouhei's love for Sunako be questioned?

I've just been rolling around, laughing and squealing in glee over this chapter. The amount of moments for Kyouhei and his 'unrequited love'!
How absolutely adorable is it that he bought chocolate for her?

When he says: Whoever that chick goes out with ain't my problem, I think he was taking for granted that Sunako just wasn't interested in boys.

He acted similarly with the first 'boyfriend' chapters and chapters ago. But this time, he actually likes her and does care.

When she doesn't react, we know what she's thinking about: Sarasara dude and the neighbour-girl, but Kyouhei on the otherhand thinks that his hurt her feelings! I loves it.

Also, is Kyouhei really dense? Sure, he can be KY at times but isn't he the one who has known how to best handle Sunako and her feelings and the one who has orchestrated the most growth in Sunako?

So when he hesitates to say or do anything isn't it rather that he wants Sunako to be happy whatever she chooses? Oh, it is love.

Ahh, man. It's been a while since I've been this excited about a chapter. I agree that deviation from Kyouhei and Sunako in the plotline means that it seems like it's much longer. But also...I... just never get into chapters on Noi or Machiko as much as I do over Sunako...:doh:

Did anyone else notice the Bleach reference for Chapter 90 as well?
*Also KY is some term they use in Japan that I've picked up from being some lame Japanophile, which basically means someone who can't read the atmosphere properly, acts out randomly without thinking...etc. ....I think.

I must ask, how fun was it to translate these chapters?


I'm aliveeee after all and back in the posting shazmatazz! Well, for a little bit.

Bleach reference? where? :thwap:

This was some real development on Kyou's part..we finally get to see him be jealous..

[HMR1]

Those chapters are really great ! ! !
I think that Kyouhei recovered all of our fangirls' love now... :sly:

I agree with all you said...
Thank you for sharing your thoughts... Talking about PGE is the best thing I know... after reading a PGE chapter ! ;)

I will focus in the dark world theme and Sunako's reactions...
In the chapter 90...
The guy looks for Sunako and the dark world because he thinks he's not worthy for the girl he loves... He tries to forget his feelings behind a world's vision : "the pretty with the pretty, the gloomy with the gloomy" and by denouncing the way his childhood friend changed (her conformism in opposition with Sunako's behavior). But it's only a talk... Of course, we think about Sunako when we see him...
And the advice Sunako gave to the guy isn't the one we want to give to her ? "Please, stop to use the darkness to hide your true feelings... Who is your radiant star ?"

And for me, the chapter 91 is the continuation of the same idea...
You can't be happy alone in the darkness...
I like when Sunako reads the story of Elizabeth and she is angry : "Such a disgusting story" because "Elizabeth should have been happy in the dark world" but she wasn't... She fall for a human who was looking like Kyouhei (ah, ah ! this mangaka...)... A radiant being...

At the same time, it's interesting that the "dark creatures" rejected her...
The opposition between dark and radiant world isn't that clear... Dark creatures are attracted by radiant ones... And she is not a dark creature by right... There is also rejection in the dark world...

And as always, the truth is said by Kyouhei :
"Stop being so self-conscious about how other people view you. You are okay just the way you are"

@Growthbeyondreason : please, explain the Bleach's thing... :bow:

[kyoheixsunako]

HMRI you are right that the boundary between the radiant and dark creatures is not as distinguished as it was at the beginning of the series. I never really noticed the gradual collision between the two worlds, but it seems that the love (or rather, like) between Kyohei and Sunako are starting to edge off the corners a little bit.

I also thought it was hilarious when Sunako, after hearing Elizabeth was not happy with her newfound dark life, got angry and pumped her fist in the air. "Just say yes to darkness!" lol it sounded like a deluded politician.

[··Irium··]

please! can anybody tell me when is volume 23 gonna release??
After last chapter i'm desperate! I want more!
do you feel the same??

[kyoheixsunako]

On cireusanime.net (the site for PGE release announcements) it says that Volume 23 of PGE won't be released till mid-end May, so the Cireus scantilation team probably will not be releasing another chapter until June. They only want HQ scans with all the covers and etc...

This may or may not help you, but if you have access to Japanese magazines Bessatsu Friend, an anime magazine, release PGE chapters continuously and are up to 94 chapters (I think).

I can't wait for the next chapter too so we'll just all have to be patient! :uhh:

[··Irium··]

very useful your information....
At leat it is gonna release soon (June! i'm waiting for you!)
I'll be patient

thanks a lot!!

[Cireus]

REMINDER: this thread is for PGE manga discussion ONLY, not to ask about releases and such. Let's get back on topic, please! If you want to ask about releases, etc, please do so in the Cireus-Scanlation forum; not in the project discussion forums!! Thank you!! :)

[BlowKisses_x]

To each their own, right? I just don't like Noi-chan. At all.

I so agree with you on her.
She's annoying.
She exaggerates ways to get them together.
Not just that.
She thinks of pointless ways, I mean doesn't she know that Sunako isn't any where near your average school girl. >.>
She needs to get hit on the head.

Also.
Kyouhei is a butt.
He started to realize his feelings but no.... he thinks too much.
Oh it's the fried shrimp!! >.>

[HMR1]

About Noi, I'll come back to my theory about the ideal types or stereotypes that the mangaka uses in PGE...

Noi isn't perfect, we all see that...
She cares about beauty, and she is considered as one of the most beautiful and popular girls of the Mori high school... She "has worked" and will work for that result...
But in other way, she isn't afraid by Sunako and likes her the way she is. She can have fun with her and tries to help her in her own way...
Her own way... That's the problem ! ! !
She has always ecstatic dreams about love's situations concerning Takenaga and her of Kyouhei and Sunako, - dreams that she tries to make come true... She never thinks to ask previously to Takenaga to share those dreams... She feels insecure about what Takenaga can think and drives herself in impossible plans to realize those dreams...
For me, she is typical of some teenagers... The only thing surprising is that she never does confabulates with other girls to know if her plans are good ! ! ! (some bad and boring memories coming to my mind... :lol:)

So, Noi isn't perfect, and sometimes she can appear despicable...
And in my point of view, it's done in purpose by the mangaka...
No one of those characters are "perfect"... They have all their "cracks"... And at the same time, they're all facing the love's torments... The evolution they know lives in their confrontation with love...
In appearance, Noi is in the best situation : she has a boyfriend that she loves and who loves her...
But, despite of this, she is troubled, and doubts... For me, the character of Noi is used to illustrate the gap between a love dreamed alone and a "real" love shared between two persons...

[BlowKisses_x]

Woah xDD
You have a point.
It's just annoying how she doesn't think her plans through correctly. :/
But you are right.
She's not all that bad. I mean she did accept Sunako and became her first girl friend.
So yeah. She's some what annoying then :p

[Cireus]

She might like Sunako-chan, but she is far from "accepting" of her. From the start, she's tried to get her to conform to HER idea of beauty and all that. I still don't like her. I still hope Takenaga dumps her. I still find her BEYOND "an-NOI-ing" ... :not:

[HMR1]

She might like Sunako-chan, but she is far from "accepting" of her. From the start, she's tried to get her to conform to HER idea of beauty and all that.

Yes... She does this kind of things... In the c43, Girls' bravo, Sunako has pimples because she ate too much chocolate... Noi exclames : "Beauty cannot be achieved in one day" And after, when they are in the esthetic salon with the Princess, she says : "It's OK... We need to be tough with her"
(Sure, I can see you :Dante: her... :lol:).

But it's not like she wanted to change Sunako at all points... Just after, she says : "Sunako is really a beautiful woman with poise. She just lacks the confidence to carry it off..."
And in the c67, The way to become pretty, about the omake's thing, she's angry against the guys who are saying that she did a great job to show what was the beauty's omake... She replies : "THAT IS SO STUPID! ! ! Do you think this is all right with Sunako-chan ?! Aren't those cheap tricks ?! What do you know about what other people see ?!"

I still find her BEYOND "an-NOI-ing" ... :not: Clever ! Well found ! ! ! ! ! ! ! :lol:

[Cireus]

Yeah, yeah, you like her, that's fine. It's also fine if I don't :)

[HMR1]

Maybe I like her, maybe not... ;)

I'm obsessed with the characters' symbolic and with what this teasing mangaka plots...

*wonders why I say that... It's obvious that I'm obsessed ! ! ! :doh: *

[Gainare Tottori]

In defense of Noi:

She is as an optimistic earnest counterpoint to Sunako (who is the opposite of optimistic) and Kyohei (who is the opposite of earnest). Most of her appearances involve her inevitable decline from "Glee! ^_^" to "Uwaah! ;_;" as once again the forces of gloom and snark overwhelm her. To fault her for being hapless or kind of incompetent is missing the point; her character exists to fail or be foiled. If anything, Noi's reasons for trying to Perfect-Girl-Evolve Sunako have always had the least to do with her own personal benefit compared to everyone else: she just tries because she wants to help Sunako get her guy. Of course, then we're back to her not-so-effective flaw.

I think the thing that makes her seem annoying is since she and Oda have the most (or even only) "normal" dating relationship among the regulars, the only route to run any relationship-drama plots through is through them. Since Oda is so low-key and cool, these necessarily involve Noi freaking out over something. I personally think those relationship-drama plots are some of the weaker chapters of PGE, but since it's a shoujo manga they're pretty much obligated to appear somewhere. :D

[HMR1]

she just tries because she wants to help Sunako get her guy.

Yesss ! ! For me, it's the way she thinks... It matches pretty well with her behavior...

Oda have the most (or even only) "normal" dating relationship among the regulars, the only route to run any relationship-drama plots through is through them. Since Oda is so low-key and cool, these necessarily involve Noi freaking out over something.

I agree... Somehow, it contributes to our frustation... It's not the kind of "loving chapters" we're expecting... :lol:
And I wonder why the mangaka doesn't use more the character of the Princess...

[Gainare Tottori]

And I wonder why the mangaka doesn't use more the character of the Princess...

Tamao's problem as a character is that she is sooooo meek and proper and Princessy that she doesn't really do or react to anything, and that makes it really hard to include her in a story. Even Hiroshi is a more active participant in the plot! @.@

[HMR1]

Even Hiroshi is a more active participant in the plot! @.@

Poor Princess ! ! :lol:
Yes... Even if she can react sometimes...
I loved her "bag's knock" into the Ranmaru's face ! ! ! ! ! (and one wasn't too much... :lol:)
I thought she didn't appear more in the story because it's still hard to believe that Ranmaru can really fall for one single girl... and even more for this one...
He talks, acts with so much emphasis... And she is is so mute... They still are an improbable couple...

NB : Hiroshi also has disappeared... Sunako didn't feel the need to talk with her best friend since a long time, now... :gee:

[cynsny]

You're right...Hiroshi is out of the picture, no nosebleeds... What is happening?
Tamao may show up again just like Yuki's girl, Machiko.
Machiko's problem is she feels too plain to be with Yuki. Yuki likes her just the way she is.

[HMR1]

Machiko's problem is she feels too plain to be with Yuki. Yuki likes her just the way she is.

Yes... That's one of the topics. All those girls feel insecure about love...
- Sunako feels inferior because she was rejected once... And because of the way other people view her, she entered in the dark world, considering that love wasn't for her... But Kyouhei loves her the way she is...
- Noi always overdoes and overprojects onto the moments she can share with Takenaga... He always says that she needn't to push herself... because he just loves her...
- What about Tamao ? She was resigned to an unrequited love (c43, Girl's bravo : "I know that you don't care about me, but I still like you"). The question is : can Ranmaru love the Princess the way she is ?

[cynsny]

Tamao... She has her charms. She is very patient and she is waiting for Ranmaru to wake up and see what he has. :thwap: That does not mean her feelings haven't been hurt though.
She likes him for him, but does not know how to relate to him. Ranmaru does not know what he wants and feels ill at ease when he's with her. That may change, but for now he's going to be a playboy.

[morphodoll]

Is it only me or Kyohei are avoiding skin contact with Sunako?
Guess the man had his own limits too.
Ranmaru reminds me of Nishikado Soujiro from Hana Yori Dango. He experienced that same dilemma as in whether to continue being a playby or just settle with a girl. Tamao's love is not an unrequited one but in a 'hold-on' list.

[BlowKisses_x]

Is it only me or Kyohei are avoiding skin contact with Sunako?
Guess the man had his own limits too.
Ranmaru reminds me of Nishikado Soujiro from Hana Yori Dango. He experienced that same dilemma as in whether to continue being a playby or just settle with a girl. Tamao's love is not an unrequited one but in a 'hold-on' list.


Omg!! You are so right!! They have been avoiding skin contact!!

[cynsny]

I'm sure that's only temporary. They can't stay away from each other. :sly: They always go back.

oops!

Well, since I double posted...

I had not noticed that they had been avoiding each other. They have never been all that close. That is unless they have to be.

[morphodoll]

It's just that Kyohei used to be more touchy-feely like patting her on her head or just stroking her hair.

And dragging her by the wrist, or pick her up in bridal style. Or sling her on his shoulder. Or shook her shoulder when he was worried.

The earlier chapter was even better, a peck on the cheek or forehead every now and then.

[HMR1]

It's just that Kyohei used to be more touchy-feely like patting her on her head or just stroking her hair.
And dragging her by the wrist, or pick her up in bridal style. Or sling her on his shoulder. Or shook her shoulder when he was worried.

Yes, I agree...
But at the same time, they look very close, now...
At the beginning of the chapter 90, when Kyouhei comes because his bento wasn't enough, Sunako nearly faints, but they begin fighting...
Sunako uses the same vocabulary than usual but what she says is interesting :
- "please don't traipse my oasis for such a crappy reason..."... How ? If it's another one, then it's OK ?
- "Radiant creatures are forbidden entrance in here" But she doesn't kick him out...

She yells but Kyouhei doesn't go and keeps arguing with her almost calmly : "Fine ! Just gimme some money !" "Please figure it out in your own" (he said please !) "That's why I said to lend me some cash"...
He tries to convince her... We were used to see him in two different situations : or he get mad and went angry or he didn't listen and catched her in some way and did what he was thinking too...

They look like an "old couple" (it's a French expression... I don't know if you understand...) :o And the end of chapter 91 was sooo nice... :o

About the bento thing, for me it's curious... how a bento made by Sunako for him can't be enough... :gee:... That never happened... Some insatisfaction ?... Or was he just looking for her (he used to get mad when he was really hungry...)

[freko_frika]

as for that
i think he's looking for her...just to annoy her...he's the type of guy that loves to annoy the girl he loves.hehhe
oh yeah he always touch her now and then but lately the skin contact is quite minimal...but his expression and words means a whole lot!maybe he stop doing that coz he realized his feelings?well subconsciously..since when sunako found out about the chocolates he was all embarassed about it but sunako was too happy to see the chocolates to realize his sudden blabbering...haha

[SCARYSUNAKO]

I love the new chapter(92) its officially my new favorite chapter i dont know why but it is maybe its because it shows that sunako and kyohei really do like each other?

[Cireus]

I thought it was quite sweet of bonehead Kyouhei to volunteer to have his blood sucked instead of her. :lol:

[HMR1]

Yeah, Kyouhei was so sweet... :o :o
He did it with no hesitation ! !

It is a nice chapter... :o
But Sunako is still Sunako...
Alright, she holds the sword against the vampire, but at last, she regrets that he's gone without her...
So, when will she choose ?
At this point, I'm thinking that I'd like to see her meet a "dark creature", and have a relationship with... Then, she would know who is the most suited for her likes ?
I know... I'm just bored...
Because one of the topics is that she hasn't to choose between dark and radiant worlds... She can have both when she will be conscious of it...
And what's the meaning of the Elizabeth's story ?
As always, the mangaka is teasing us... with this woman vampire dying and apparently betraying her companion to not bit a beautiful boy... Leaving the dark to the light...
The last pages show that she didn't betray him... and was faithful to their relationship... But she was aware of her feelings... and Sunako isn't...
So, I keep with the same question...

[kyoheixsunako]

I have to admit, I was very curious how this story would turn out because it just seemed like the mangaka set herself up for an impossible situation. The reader definitely expects a lot of love in the second part, but they also want the story to be complete. I thought that it was written nicely, except for the VERY LAST SPEECH BUBBLE (Sunako's).
When the vampire apparently dissapeared, Sunako seemed to reverse back to her old self by mourning and saying "take me with you." I thought that this statement was very hastily written, since Sunako definitely showed evolution throughout the rest of the chapter. As always, the mangaka wants to drag out her story and so she tries to make it look like there has been very little advancement - it just looks messy to me and doesn't really add up with the rest of the story (she almost killed the vampire earlier - and he's a creature of the darkness!!) Sunako was willing to harm "one of her own" to save a CREATURE OF THE LIGHT!? Sorry, but you just can't reverse the evolution with just one statement!
As for Kyohei and Sunako...At first, I was thoroughly confused with Kyohei's statement involving blood...then I realized that he was basically saying "take me instead" in his own arrogant language (some things just don't change...but what I found MOST astounding was Sunako's statements that "radiant creatures should stay in radiant places" and "please drink my blood." When I first read it, I thought that she was just her usual, dark hostile self unwilling to let any creature of the light invade her sanctuary. But then I realized that it seemed like she was trying to protect him by saying that since Kyohei is a creature of the light, he should be thankful of his acceptance and doesn't want him to be like her. When Sunako asked the vampire to drink her blood, I think she gave herself up, thinking that since she was already a creature of the darkness she had nothing to lose while Kyohei would lose everything. The statement would have been more clear if it was written like "please drink my blood."
The Elizabeth story overall threw me for a loop because it was so unexpected. I think it was used to convey a definite relationship between Sunako and Kyohei...or maybe the mangaka just got stuck and went with whatever she could thread together. There are some similarities between Elizabeth and Sunako, such as the will to sacrifice themselves for their love (whether conscious or not) but overall their stories couldn't be more different. I can't wait to read the Christmas story of Sunako and Kyohei...I've heard that Sunako gets a little tipsy and a bit more forward. Anyone have any spoiler pages?? :uhh:

[freko_frika]

me too i'm wondering about the significance of that vampire chapter.well at least there was some love evolution well sort of since it quickly revert back to nothing...aiiih...
but i'm happy for kyohei's development so far...xp..
anyways juz like the user before me,i too am craving for some spoiler....huhuuu like are there any more moments to look forward to or another filler fest....
-please nakahara sunako, do awaken to your true feelings!!-

[HMR1]

I thought that it was written nicely, except for the VERY LAST SPEECH BUBBLE (Sunako's).
When the vampire apparently dissapeared, Sunako seemed to reverse back to her old self by mourning and saying "take me with you." I thought that this statement was very hastily written, since Sunako definitely showed evolution throughout the rest of the chapter. As always, the mangaka wants to drag out her story and so she tries to make it look like there has been very little advancement - it just looks messy to me and doesn't really add up with the rest of the story (she almost killed the vampire earlier - and he's a creature of the darkness!!) Sunako was willing to harm "one of her own" to save a CREATURE OF THE LIGHT!? Sorry, but you just can't reverse the evolution with just one statement!

Yes... It's Sunako... When there is an urgency, she always saves Kyouhei, but she didn't think after about her own actions... She almost never sets out what she did... And the few times she does, she acts really weird (remember c75, the "I don't hate him. Do I?" thing...)
And here it's the same as always...

... like if nothing happened... and the Elizabeth and vampire's story doesn't move her... She should be moved, but she isn't...
Because what is obvious in this story ?
- the sadness of the vampire : "I too wished to have a love like yours..." The dark world, the eternity is nothing in comparison...
NB : Sunako forgot to deny ? !
- the resolution of Elizabeth : "I didn't want to burden that boy with the same pain that you bore. I know that you regretted to have sharing the same pain with me" The death is better than this life that the vampire didn't want for her...
Normally, Sunako would be disturbed by those statements... Because in her mind, the best world where she can be herself and feel secure is the dark one... So, how can two dark creatures have regrets about it?

Hasn't awareness' time to come now ? ? :sly:

[kyoheixsunako]

Exactly! Sunako SHOULD be aware of her feelings by now...maybe not completely, but at least a hint of it, but I think that since the manga is so popular the mangaka just wants to write a few more volumes first before there is a conclusion. At this point, the cast is still discovering themselves...Ranmaru becoming more serious about love...Takenaga stabilizing the love between him and Noi-chan...Yuki becoming more bold...and Kyohei learning to think and care about others for a change. Sunako's evolution to love again will definitely occur last, after all the other conflict and matters have been resolved. Well, at least we can all expect a good amount of volumes to come! :pile:

[HMR1]

At the present, I'm quite resigned and I only view a magic or supernatural situation for the two of them realizing their feelings...
I kept this idea in my weird mind all day...
For example, imagine Sunako and Kyouhey bumping their heads and switching their personalities... The soul of Sunako in the body of Kyouhei and vice-versa ! ! ! ! :lol:
They should realize then, no ? "What, what is this weird feeling..." :p
Of course, they might bump again and forget all ! ! !
But, sooner or later, something would remember them what happened !
Imagine all the situations they experienced switching personalities...
A PERFECT ILLUSION ! ! !

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/hmr1_bucket/scan0002.jpg
Dedicated to Growthbeyondreason ! ;)
Oh my... It probably wouldn't work... How Sunako could stay conscious in the body of Kyouhei ? ? ?

Well, I stop now...
That's just flights of fancy ! ! :doh:

[growthbeyondreason]

Why couldn't it!??!

We've seen all kinds of fantastical, supernatural themes introduced, the old switcharoo should make an appearance!
If mangaka-sama can introduce a real vampire into the plot, I'm sure she could work out something to switch their bodies.

Now if that were to happen, you have to wonder what Sunako would do from the perspective of Kyouhei?
She would see herself as she really is. And also, understand what it would be like to be dazzling.

If Kyouhei were to be in Sunako's body, he's natural affiliation with Light might change the aura around Sunako. Because we now know, being Dark or Light doesn't necessarily mean ugly or beautiful, there is also the inner beauty factor.
So, if Kyouhei can make Sunako look beautiful because he has self-confidence, then Sunako can see from Kyouhei's perspective what she looks like.
And Kyouhei can understand how Sunako might feel with her low self-esteem and why she reacts to his appearance.
It would make the PERFECT situation for Sunako to see how she truly is and for Kyouhei to understand her and himself that much better.

Not to mention, they are teenagers, and being in the bodies of the opposite sex is bad enough, let alone the lovely tension between the two.

If that were to happen! My goodness, <3

HMR1, you've called me from my slumber and with a lovely picture!
(You're a mod now! Congratulations!)

:) Merci beaucoup.

[haine21]

hey everyone!! I'm new here... I finally finished all of the available chapters of Wallflower yesterday! Can't wait for the next chapter to come out. I'm really wishing that Kyohei and Sunako would realize their feelings (for each other?) soon, although I can't help but to think that when that happens, then the manga would be ending soon. I don't really want the story to end just yet, cause then they'll be going their separate ways.

[freko_frika]

yeah me too...actually all of us probably thinks so too...
still when can we read the long awaited confessions!!
despite the slow romance plot.i still like this .just imagine,when it happens (i mean the romance),its usually good...like the kiss in chapter 74 etc...
plus the art is really good...i mean i've seen many characters that kinda resemble Sunako..that long black hair pretty goth look.so far sunako is drawn the best for me..haha

[HMR1]

Well, we're all talking about the end, but at the present, I'd be pretty unsatisfied if the mangaka rushes things all of sudden...
I know that's contradictory because at the same time, I'm a bit fed up of the Sunako's blindness...

Hayakawa has played a lot with appearances (which makes PGE so funny) and made us sigh so often... Somehow, it's an inextricable situation...
Last time, I was straying about some supernatural plot, because finally, how can Sunako realize ?
I won't be satisfied if the move comes from Kyouhei... again.

And when will those dark walls fissure ?
I mean Sunako also saves Kyouhei in any kind of situations, but she has always "weird" reasons (weird for us !) to do so and to explain that she did so.
But, how can she bear and explain that he saves her ?
Aren't dazzling and dark creatures unrelated and unequal ?
We'll say it's because she trusts him and knows that he doesn't think this way... She knows, can I believe it ?
If she knows, how can she accept that ? Isn't she the first to justify those walls between them ? Or, is she fine with Kyouhei's actions ? And if it's the case, how long can she remain silent about that ?

[Cireus]

Proof positive that I'm a little too easy to amuse ... In cleaning c94 for typesetting, I just had to laugh when I saw ...

Ranmaru's nipples. WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[haine21]

I agree, Sunako is a really beautiful characters. Just when I'm getting used to her chibi version walking around serving the guys, something happens and her "real" self shows. She's really pretty, I hope she'll get the courage to look at a mirror again soon. The last time she did was in chapter 87 and both Kyohei and her almost took a big step towards something in their relationship. Too bad Kyohei ruined Ran-chan's plan with his friend shrimp comment. I squeeeeeed so loud when i got to this page http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt267/haine21/Chap87page30-31.jpg

[HMR1]

Oh yess...
Both of them are pretty good for ruining the mood ! :lol:
In the beach chapter (c89), Sunako ruined the mood by her big nosebleed...
In the stars' chapter (c90), Kyouhei ruined the mood falling asleep...
In the vampire chapters (c91-92), Sunako ruined the mood by her last comment...
Aaaah... Self-defense, isn't it ? :sly:

[Ginoru]

Hello long time not dropping by!!

I have been reading comments and i have realized something, now we are talking about ruining the mood, of their moments toguether etc while at the beguinning and for a long time we just commented on the funny and crazy parts...

Despite them not "being" toguether factually they are indeed toguether since it's them and their feelings, and the rest of the things happening around, I don't know if i have been able to translate what i mean :P

[blurry_eyes]

Cireus.. you are teasing us!

Proof positive that I'm a little too easy to amuse ... In cleaning c94 for typesetting, I just had to laugh when I saw ...

Ranmaru's nipples. WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I like HMR1's idea for bumping kyohei and sunako's head to switch their personalities. I think that one of the best way to make them realize their feeling.
Hmm... I imagine that kyohei will be cooking in kitchen and sunako will eating greedily.
If that condition really happen, maybe the great impact will be on sunako. Because sunako will see her body with kyohei's confidence. Beauty and attractiveness will appear because of it. And it will make sunako conscious that she also can be beautiful.
And kyohei.. Hmm.. he will be happy as long as he eat delicious food. :doh:

[haine21]

Whether its self-defense or something else, it would be really funny to read about their (mis)adventures if ever the plot goes into a romantic relationship between these two. If Hayakawa-sama decides to bring them together, it would be hilarious to see how they'll be expressing their love to each other. I can't imagine Sunako being all lovey-dovey to Kyohei though. I guess it would only happen when Sunako finally becomes a lady?? Can't wait for the next chapters to come out!!

[blurry_eyes]

Oh, my Goooooooood!!! Those are great chapters!!!!
Just finish reading c93-95! :happydance:

I keep on laughing.. keep on laughing... keep on laughing..

c93

Why kyohei is saying that ("Quit sulking you, guys!!" ???) It's not like kyohei's character, right? He suppose to be like others, insulting yuki. Hmmm...

Ooh.. and suddenly kyohei grab champagne and drink it after seeing sunako. I think, he is tempted by sunako and try to get that thought away. He seems trying HARD to run away.

c94

So..the reason Ranmaru is being playboy is for defeating his dad.
Hmm.. His dad is cool guy. I like his method; to make anyone dislike what he always like, is giving him a lot until he sick of it.


c95

What a great, nice, and fun ending on that chapter :HMR1:
No nosebleed at all!!! What a huge progress!! Wow! (still amaze!) :pile:

[Anime Lover]

i also read the chapters .
what a wonderful ending with kyohei and sunako :love:
both of them are really in love ^_^

[freko_frika]

yup yup.they enjoy bein together....and thank god for no nosebleeds!!
plus the part where kyohei commented on how warm it is while snuggling with sunako is just so cute!!

^^

[HMR1]

Yes, the end of this chapter is nice... :o
And the c95 is really more interesting than the c93 (I won't talk about c94 because Ranmaru is stuuuuuuuupid ! :irk:)
I mean in the c93, they are drunk... So even if they're getting along, it's in an "unconscious" way... As we had some by the past...
But in the c95, they are "normal" :lol:
It's pretty interesting... Sunako plays in the living-room with Kyouhei. They really get along. She needed Kyouhei to install the game : he didn't install in her bedroom but she accepted. She doesn't feel the need to be hidden to play...
As you said, she doesn't have nosebleed, plus Kyouhei isn't dazzling at all... They share the same interest, they have a common problem, and the same way of thinking... :lol: So, Kyouhei doesn't appear to her so different... no more superior ??? :sly: The way they play, they argue, and keep awaken each other is pretty funny... In the all chapter, they seem dived in their own world, and pretty close...

[haine21]

Hooray for the newest released scanlations of PGE!!! It took a long time (but maybe I was being really impatient) but it was worth the wait! 3 chapters at once!!! The newest chapters were great!!

In chapter 93
I was really shocked to see Sunako loving Christmas as much as Halloween, and it was a riot looking at Oda's, Ranmaru's and Suna's faces when they finally finished Edward Scissorhands! All sparkly and teary-eyed! And chibi-Sunako dancing the oompa loompa dance! Hahaha!! What a cutie!!! Although, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory really isn't a horror movie, right? Maybe she's opening up to the "light" side even more with this slip?

In chapter 94
Ranmaru's dad is such a romantic, but scary! So it was him that turned Ranmaru into a playboy? "Taking his son's girlfriend" with just a sentence, the fruit really doesn't fall far from the tree... By the time Ranmaru met the king's girls, I thought he was going to get a nosebleed!! But was he really reformed? The ending was a little foggy for me...

In chapter 95
A student's very real nemesis when it comes to studying -- computer games!! Kyohei and Sunako playing video games together, and then having to study all night together... then beating each other up to stay awake. These two are really one-of-a-kind!! But then Hayakawa-sama changes everything with that hug!!

Boy, that was long! Can't wait for the next chapters to come out!! Good job to everyone in the scanlating team!!

[Karol_lp]

I agree with you, guys. They looked sooo cute together in Ch.95...BUT.....I definitely don't think they're in love @.@ (at least not Sunako)

[Anime Lover]

I agree with you, guys. They looked sooo cute together in Ch.95...BUT.....I
definitely don't think they're in love (at least not Sunako)
Why ??!!
i think the last chapter gave us something that prove the 2 of
them are really in love ..

[HMR1]

No, I agree with Karol_lp... They are pretty close, but not conscious of being in love...
All the problem is the awareness of this feeling !!! :sly:

EDIT : The thing new in this chapter is that they can do things together without curse, hypnotism, etc...
I'll add two things interesting about Sunako: first, when she resolves herself to study, she begins in the living-room... She doesn't think to go to her bedroom where Kyouhei won't be... And the second thing is that she doesn't look for winning against Kyouhei at all costs as she used to. So, there are some changes... But as Karol_lp, I think that's too early to say that she is in love (for me she will be when she'll be able to set it out!!!)

[haine21]

I also don't think they're in love... yet. I think they are at the point where they're finally opening up to people they don't normally feel close to. Like for Kyohei, I think its hard for him to get too close to any girl because of his bad experiences in the past. He's beginning to get even closer to Sunako because he doesn't think she's a girl, at least not in the normal sense (meaning, fawning over cute guys like him). As for Sunako, I think she's slowly opening up to the idea of coexisting with dazzling creatures. Just like HMR1 says, she's no longer closeting herself inside of her room all the time.

[nikkis]

i dont think they are in love they act like they like each others company but to call it love i dont think so they act like my friend and this boy she likes always fighting then being nice to each other but their not in love with each other (they live next door to each other)


ohh one question how many chapters till the series is done me and my friends want to know and can you tell use please and thanks

[Cireus]

That question has already been answered in another thread in this forum. Please check before asking.

[rocio]

excuse for speaking of an old chapter. but I remain in doubt
I was sifting through the old chapters.
about ch.79 (at the end of the chapter)
when youhei says: did you forget
THE RICE'S RADIANCE?
does not refer to himself?
"did you forget of me"
(sunako often tell:criature radiance)
maybe he said it so unconscious.

[Cireus]

The chapter that pertained the the emaciated prince and Sunako learning to bake bread? He was simply reminding her of the Japanese food that she loves :)

[winter_night]

I agree with you, guys. They looked sooo cute together in Ch.95...BUT.....I definitely don't think they're in love @.@ (at least not Sunako)

no, sunako's in love. she just doesn't realize it. or maybe she has forgotten how it feels...

thanks, cireus, for the awesome chapters!! can't wait for the next one!!

(^_^)

[chibi-s]

'course she loves him. :)
Look at all the things she does for him. Hides his vegies, makes a kotatsu (whatever that is), rescues him from vampires, feeds him her favourite chocolate so he can stay up and study etc.
Its a major theme in the story isn't it? Real love vs the illusion? She loves him despite his defects and shows it by kindness compared to the crush she had on the boy the hurt her and the crazy swooning of the girls at school whenever they see the "charismatic four".
But she's only just admitted to herself that she doesn't hate him. Give her some time.

[Ginoru]

You make a good point there, there's a difference between really loving someone (despite themselves) and having the illusion that you love someone.

They are in the middle of it before they realized they had started :P

[Anime Lover]

i am agree with you that she can't realize it so i hope she understand her love :luv:

[Clayshell]

out of topic

do you thinks it's really reasonable that sunako hides in the darkness just because of one guy???

she was lucky that the only thing happens to her others

when they in a relationship the guys usually having another affair if that happen suano is in a seriously be hurt

just asking

[morphodoll]

@Clayshell:
That's what Kyohei for. He's a one woman man and from what I've seen there's no way he's going to have an affair.

Yeah, Sunako is a very lucky girl, just hope she can realise it soon...

[Clayshell]

i guess if that scenario didn't happen no sunako and kyohei paring

y\that's all you may proceed to the original topic

sorry about that

[Clayshell]

i don't know but i think using sunako is an easy way to get even closer to takenaga

she only cares about beauty

[Cireus]

Are you talking about Noi-chan, Clayshell? lol

[Clayshell]

yup it's noi-chi hehehe

T_T this is very harsh but she's the type of a character that has beauty but no brain (ouch!!!) sorry about that

still doesn't know how to cook
think about it takenaga's family is traditional if his family specialy his mom finds out that noi don't know any house hold chores takenaga's mom might decline
and separate them

[inniyah]

Uhm, Hi! I a new inthis forum... well almost... I have been a lurker for a long time :)

Clayshell, I don't think SUnako hides in the dark for one guy. Maybe in the beginning it was like that, but I think this manga is a critic against shoujo manga... some sort of a parody, in which "the girl is all cute... then gets depressed "hides in the dark"" and then she notices that she likes the dark, she is at home in it.

This manga is about the acceptation of oneself... even if the others don't like how we are, we have to like ourselves. Sunako still has security problems, that's maybe why she always talks about "light creatures" and ""dark creatures"... when she comes to accept that all people is worth the same, and that everyone have their quirks, then she is going to accept her love for Kyouhei.

I think she tried too hard to be something that she wasn't "cute, smiley, delicate", for a guy... but I think that Sunako was always (in the bottom of her hearth), the same gothic little girl she is now... when the guy called her ugly, she got depressed because she learnt that "a monkey is going to be a monkey, even if you put jewels and dresses on it". In the end, we are what we always were.

[HMR1]

I totally agree !
The fact is Sunako feels secure in this "dark world" where are all the things she likes.
But as we have seen through the chapters, she less and less hides herself in her room and more and more shows openly her likes.

What was her feeling of insecurity at the beginning ?
- to show the way she was ? After the fringe's incident, she couldn't go out without a hat. She was afraid to see herself in a mirror... All of that because this opposition she believes in between dark and dazzling creatures, and her feeling of inferiority.
She wanted to escape from the comparison, from the oppression of living in a world she didn't belong to (feeling she had since the guy rejected her). And she needed at school a room where she could have her things and feel comfortable.
- Since the guy's rejection, Sunako never pretended to change to become pretty or to become a lady. She was and is fine with her dark world's friends. She just didn't want to be noticed neither have relationships with dazzling people because she was sure to not be accepted.

Somehow, she lacked confidence in herself but also in others. And both of those feelings are changing. She has made friends who like her the way she is. So, she considers now that friendship is possible again...
Next step ? ;)

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

EDIT : Did you read the chapter 96 ???? :woot:
Come on... Tell me what you think about !

[Cireus]

I am tellin' you, I think that the Prince needs a good wedgie ... :lol:

[growthbeyondreason]

It made me think how much I love this manga and why I don't mind that it's not set chronologically and how it can be completely illogical and the mangaka seriously just does whatever she wants.
Despite all it's eccentricities, it still makes me squeal a bit when I see Kyouhei sulk about his feelings for Sunako. Nearly every chapter, I've squee'd a little just because that's how it makes me feel. And I like it. VERY much so.

This chapter, I'll have to get back into PGE mode, but I say 'HERE WE GO, NOW WE'RE GETTING SOMEWHERE'.

But again, LOL, mangaka-sensei might just do what she always does. 1 step forward, 2 steps back. But I think at this stage, it's getting to become 2 steps forward, 1 step back. Because I basically believe, that Kyouhei, even if he's a little dense, definitely knows how he feels for Sunako now. And in whatever ways he knows how, whether it's indeed hitting her across the head, they're going to come around. And it'll be beautiful.

My first shoujo manga. Forever and ever. <3

[HMR1]

Because I basically believe, that Kyouhei, even if he's a little dense, definitely knows how he feels for Sunako now. And in whatever ways he knows how, whether it's indeed hitting her across the head, they're going to come around. And it'll be beautiful.
My first shoujo manga. Forever and ever. <3

Yes... I believe it too !
And it's how I understand the reply he made to the prince who challenged him...
"Win or lose. It ain't none of my business..."
We can consider that he's only trying to act cool, but he's also saying something true : the only person who can make a move and decide is Sunako...
As long as she will be self-centered and totally blind/dense about love, there will be no winner.

And this poor charming prince...
To think that he came all the way to Japan to learn about Japanese horror/ ghost stories and Japanese cooking... He totally got into Sunako's mode... :lol:
He may think he lost last time because of the rice and... because of Kyouhei. He's pretty determined... :o Oh my... I'm having a Noi's reaction !!! :lol:


I like last scene in shadow puppet (in French we say "Chinese shadow").
What will happen next ??? :sly:

[rocio]

I remain a doubt.
kyouhei realizes that she is possessed by the cat?

[morphodoll]

Despite all it's eccentricities, it still makes me squeal a bit when I see Kyouhei sulk about his feelings for Sunako. Nearly every chapter, I've squee'd a little just because that's how it makes me feel. And I like it. VERY much so.

I love you for this. I like it too when Kyohei sulk about his feelings and I don't have an idea why I like it so much.<3

[HMR1]

I see two reasons...
1) it's so rare to have any hint about his feelings... So, it's like you found a gem... And with those last chapters, you may believe that the treasure does exist !!! ;)
2) it's just too cuuuuuute... KYAAAAA ! (Noi's mode is pretty scary... :lol:)
More seriously, even if he states that there is nothing he can do, he needs to show his dissatisfaction.

And to reply to Rocio, I guess you are talking about the last scenes ?
I think he does... He knows pretty well Sunako. From the start, he noticed she was acting weird.

[morphodoll]

I see two reasons...
1) it's so rare to have any hint about his feelings... So, it's like you found a gem... And with those last chapters, you may believe that the treasure does exist !!! ;)
2) it's just too cuuuuuute... KYAAAAA ! (Noi's mode is pretty scary... :lol:)
More seriously, even if he states that there is nothing he can do, he needs to show his dissatisfaction.

Yeah, his character is soooo original. I mean, the way he expresses his feeling is weird and eccentric but it is sooo cute because he's Kyohei XD
He's a big baby even when it is about his feelings.

[HMR1]

Yessss... He really is a nice character... :o
About Kyouhei, the place of language is interesting...
Do you remember the second Christmas' chapters, when the guys recalled how they met, and compared Kyouhei to a chopper knife ?
When he talks, Kyouhei isn't considerate. His way of speaking is harsh/sharp... like a knife, and like the truth !!
In the manga he is the character (with also Takenaga) that states "the truth" by his words . The most of time it's about Sunako.
But that doesn't work about his own feelings... Then, as you said, he behaves like a child : a shouting, sulking or teasing child... :o

[growthbeyondreason]

Kyouhei's personality has this interesting balance that I am fond of.
The immaturity and the somewhat childish attempts at expressing his feelings and yet, he has such a deep understanding of how Sunako works and all the choices she'll have to make (Lady vs Dark Lady, Prince or Kyouhei). Ahhh, Kyouhei. <3
Still, whilst he has done many things that show he cares and loves Sunako. I wish he could also say : "I will not lose (to you, Prince)" That way we could just be SURE that he loved Sunako. Though I mean, I'm pretty sure we all know that he does.

Another thing. I like how Oda and Ranmaru and such have no problem with the Prince. Which is a nice thing. Since it means that they accept Sunako for who she is. She can have a scary life talking about scary things with the Prince. As long as she's happy. That's sweet. Though then they ignore poor Kyouhei. :(

Still, whilst he has done many things that show he cares and loves Sunako. I wish he could also say : "I will not lose (to you, Prince)" That way we could just be SURE that he loved Sunako. Though I mean, I'm pretty sure we all know that he does.
LET ME TAKE THAT BACK. When the Prince proposes and Kyouhei is there overhearing and he just jumps forward.
Ranmaru says here: "Kinda unrefined eh? LOL
And then he's holding onto her and he sees her, he pauses, stricken, frozen. And then come the excuses for why she should stay.
"GET THE HELL OVER HERE. Ain't this guy trying to take something of ours?" HELP ME OUT! I don't know what to say. But you don't belong with him.
"Snap out of it!" Keep your mind on the white brilliance that is rice!
"That's coz I'm nervous"
CUTTEEE!

So the question...Is he in denial still? Or is he aware, just can't put his feelings into words? Is it for consideration of Sunako's feelings (she's not ready, she doesn't know how she feels)?
"Whatever! I don't care anymore! Do what you want!"
Oh, Kyouhei...You coward

[Registration]

I miss YNSH so goshdarn much. <3
About chapter 96...
Does Kyohei really realize he likes Sunako? 'Cause it seems like he might...I hope he does! The way he reacted to some of the things the prince said made me think that. The sad expression he had when 'Sunako' lead the prince away for a walk in the night, as well...
This chapter was great, but left a cliffhanger! I can't wait to see what happens next. XD
Kyouhei's personality has this interesting balance that I am fond of.
The immaturity and the somewhat childish attempts at expressing his feelings and yet, he has such a deep understanding of how Sunako works and all the choices she'll have to make (Lady vs Dark Lady, Prince or Kyouhei). Ahhh, Kyouhei. <3
Still, whilst he has done many things that show he cares and loves Sunako. I wish he could also say : "I will not lose (to you, Prince)" That way we could just be SURE that he loved Sunako. Though I mean, I'm pretty sure we all know that he does.

Another thing. I like how Oda and Ranmaru and such have no problem with the Prince. Which is a nice thing. Since it means that they accept Sunako for who she is. She can have a scary life talking about scary things with the Prince. As long as she's happy. That's sweet. Though then they ignore poor Kyouhei. :(


LET ME TAKE THAT BACK. When the Prince proposes and Kyouhei is there overhearing and he just jumps forward.
Ranmaru says here: "Kinda unrefined eh? LOL
And then he's holding onto her and he sees her, he pauses, stricken, frozen. And then come the excuses for why she should stay.
"GET THE HELL OVER HERE. Ain't this guy trying to take something of ours?" HELP ME OUT! I don't know what to say. But you don't belong with him.
"Snap out of it!" Keep your mind on the white brilliance that is rice!
"That's coz I'm nervous"
CUTTEEE!

So the question...Is he in denial still? Or is he aware, just can't put his feelings into words? Is it for consideration of Sunako's feelings (she's not ready, she doesn't know how she feels)?
"Whatever! I don't care anymore! Do what you want!"
Oh, Kyouhei...You coward

I also love Kyohei for the same reasons. <3 And I want confrimation on his feelings. too!
Haha, they were very accepting of Sunako's apparent decision, weren't they? It was sweet.
Oh, about the thing you spoilered...
I don't think he was talking about the prince taking her away. XD I thought it was the white ghost thing, the cat. Because it seemed he saw it in the page before he grabbed her.

[HMR1]

Ahhh ! It's so goooooood to talk about PGE again !
Thank you for sharing your toughts !!! :<3:

Yes, Sunako really made good friends ! It's a nice scene where dark and dazzling worlds live together...
About the cat's scene, I guess the two interpretations you said are good.
This teasing mangaka always does this kind of things : to create a confusing scene where appearances and reality are mixed... Or, I want to say where obviousness and undercurrent are mixed !
So, our hopes increase...
Here the confusion is created by the words...
... and by the inversion between object and human.
Kyouhei says "this guy" instead of "this thing"/"this ghost". So we can and we want to believe that's all about the prince.
Growthbeyondreason talked about his cowardice... Well, I guess he tinks it's too hard, early and probably useless to go further. Even more when all consider he's just jealous and unrefined...
It's interesting that he says "taking something of ours". He says "ours" because the others are rejecting what he does but at the same time, the plural is an understatement, and didn't he mean "taking something of mine" ? So, you belong to me...
Well, in his sentence, Sunako is an object... It could be harsh. But it's just another understatement. I don't know if you have this kind of expression; in French, we talk about someone's love's object. And of course, it's not pejorative, it's precious ! So, can he let "this guy", his rival, to have it ? ;)

[growthbeyondreason]

Love's object, huh?
Imagine if Kyouhei was the possessive type. If he had Sunako, would he ever let her go? HEEHEE! :<3: If Sunako were to be Kyouhei's, I wouldn't mind in the slightest. Of course, Sunako would have a few words...and punches to say about that.

I saw the cat there. But I totally ignored it completely. LOL. Biased, selective reading/viewing.
It's interesting that I'd be made to think it was for Sunako, and Registration saw it as going for the cat ghost.
That would be the dratted Mangaka-sama's attempt at TRICKSING US and making the scene ambiguous.

So was Kyouhei caught off guard because the cat disappeared and he had to say something to explain his actions? Or he had gone and acted on impulse to stop Sunako and had been at a lost of words?
What was the purpose of the cat ghost?
To represent the choice Sunako would have to make? To draw in the third person of the love triangle?

But, still, in what Kyouhei says about making Sunako 'inspiration'.
Doesn't that follow a pattern? How that bullied kid hung out with her because she protected him. How that Sarasara-kun was with her because he wanted to make the actual girl he liked, jealous.

We know Sunako knows who the true Kyouhei is. Knows that she definitely doesn't 'like' him for just his face.

And maybe, it's Kyouhei's turn to reciprocate that he appreciates Sunako for who she is as well. That he isn't using her for protection, for jealousy or for inspiration.
He loves her for her. :love:

LOL. It really is great discussing and reading DEEPLY into PGE again. It's been a long time, HMR1.

[HMR1]

What was the purpose of the cat ghost?
To represent the choice Sunako would have to make?

That's it for me !!
You know that the mangaka likes metaphor using supernatural beings...
The cat was crying for his lost mistress... If she hadn't to choose between two men, she would be still safe.
Safe ! Secure ! As in the dark world...
So, it's how I understand that Sunako is easily possessed by the cat's spirit : subconsciously, she doesn't want to face this choice... So, it would be better if those two guys disappear.


But we're only at the half of the chapter... ;)

But, still, in what Kyouhei says about making Sunako 'inspiration'.

Doesn't that follow a pattern? How that bullied kid hung out with her because she protected him. How that Sarasara-kun was with her because he wanted to make the actual girl he liked, jealous.[...] That Kyouhei isn't using her for protection, for jealousy or for inspiration.

Yes, yes ! I totally agree !
There are evolutions, neee ? In the "real world", there are guys interested in Sunako, but that was for bad/fake reasons. And that's not the case of Kyouhei. (I know I'm so affirmative here ! I want to believe it!! :lol:)
The question is : what is he denouncing here ?
- If it's the ghost cat, is it to warn her to not run away any more ?
- If it's the prince, why does he think his interest in her isn't good ?
The prince seems to be the most suitable person for Sunako... But we can consider that the fact he's learning about Japanese ghost stories and cooking isn't really a good point. He wants to stay on her right side. Does he really share all the same likes ?
And what about the proposal ? Does he truly love her, or the bad reason is that he needs Sunako to escape from the fiancee that their parents chose ? Even if he likes her, he's doing all in a hurry... Is he aware/ does he respect that she's not ready ?
So, if I want to be bad, if there wasn't this proposal, he wouldn't look for Sunako so fast. Is it that good ?
(NB : I can't really trust a guy that needed to imprison Kyouhei to be sure to not loose Sunako...)

[Vie_vie]

Aie,, what will happens next?
I can't wait to see for the next chapters!! When will come out?

[Cireus]

read the rules of this forum, please. This thread is for discussion of the manga ONLY. Do NOT ask when anything is going to be released in here.

[Ginoru]

Loved this last chapter, i know the mangaka aaalways plays with us but it's nice to get the feeling of "Woa!! Something is happening!!" normally this chaps where things have to be looked twice use to be very nice.

I was wondering a couple of things too XD Why Sunako is always so prone to get possesed? lol, why Kyohei always takes it so personally to make her wake?

I noticed that lately the rest of the guys and girls are always in a second place unless it's their story, maybe that's a good pointer too :)

By the way, warning, it contain spoilers for those that didn't read the chapter!
The thing hanging from the tree is the prince isn't it?

[HMR1]

Why Sunako is always so prone to get possessed? lol, why Kyohei always takes it so personally to make her wake?

My theory : she is easily possessed when she has to face "reality"... Exactly, when it deals with her buried feelings. Think about the "first kiss" chapters !
Somehow it's interesting to consider this old chapter. If you remember, Sunako was happily sleeping in her coffin after the Christmas she couldn't celebrate alone. Kyouhei came to wake her to do a major cleaning with the guys. Then she is possessed by the ghost (Elizabeth) who used to kill her lovers (Love always seems to lead to death! :lol:)
Then Kyouhei finds the solution : the kiss to wake up Sunako... And after, she is nearly a zombie... But when Kyouhei explained to her that was a emotionless kiss... She becomes OK again...
There wasn't emotion/ love. She won't fall again. She is secure.
So, to be possessed appears as the extreme way to escape from consciousness... Sunako does nothing half-heartedly !

In the other hand, those ghosts are special... I have to check, but it seems to me that they all had a sad love's experience. They are insatisfied and wandering... And we can consider that they possess Sunako because she's is nearly similar (dark connections ! :lol:).
They are wandering... So, it can be to illustrate that is not to love but to not love/to not be loved that is really painful (for example : the first Elizabeth felt alone in a foreign country/ the hospital's ghost couldn't give his letter to his lover/ the vampire thought that Elizabeth betrayed him....)
I know that here the ghost is the cat.
But the cat lost his mistress that he loved. And he thinks he lost her because of those two men. As Sunako (?), he thinks that to love was a bad thing... So the end of this chapter is more than interesting for me !

And why Kyouhei takes it so personally to make her wake?
For me, I see two reasons :
- he considers that she is running away. He wants her to face the situations. Kyouhei accepts the likes of Sunako (he shares some), but not that she buries herself and loose her mind.
- he can't help himself because he loves her.

About the thing "hanging"...
Yes, it's the prince... And I was wondering if it was a cherry tree... Even if the corpses are supposed to be buried at the feet of it! :lol:

[edenwest]

Hi!

It suddenly appeared to me that the Japanese name of this manga “Yamato Nadeshiko Shichi Henge” may explain a little the structure of the story. Shichi henge makes indeed reference to kabuki, where the dancer changes quickly his clothes seven times (that’s in fact the meaning of the expression), accomplishing by the way seven metamorphoses…
Well, can’t we see the same idea in the manga? The story line gives a feeling of something very cyclic, by the repetition of situations which are almost the same but not exactly… Sunako and the others seem to always go through the same ordeals… and we can put these in seven categories

1) a rival in love appears

2) occurrence of fantastic : they meet a character of the dark world, and/or sometimes someone in the gang gets possessed/hypnotized, and so on
related to truth and let suppose some sort of love : Sunako can after that have an hysteric reaction and that type of situation frequently shows some kind of attraction… for example in chapter 97…

3) someone is kidnapped!
usually Kyohei or Hiroshi, the closest to Sunako in her two groups of friends

4) competition, mostly between Kyohei and Sunako, but not necessarily

5) they interact with the others as a group : on a trip, at school or they simply hang out together

6) the cycle of time : Halloween (autumn, but can be related to fantastic), viewing cherry trees (spring), summer, its heats ad festivals, winter, Christmas and Japanese new year… of course, Valentine’s Day also belongs here…

7) forced to love : the guys make Sunako and Kyohei go to dates, they are forced to “prove” their supposed love in front of fangirls and classmates, they live together…
by the way, we can note that the really intimate moments between the two aren’t witnessed by anybody…



These categories aren’t hermetically separated: they can be mixed… The real evolution in Sunako can be seen in her different reaction in a similar situation… Time after time, a nuance appears and is deepened… and the story slowly progress in a cyclic manner, realising the true transformation of Sunako in seven “clothes”, dancing in circles…

thanks for reading and sorry for the mistakes, English is obviously not my native language...

[HMR1]

That's pretty interesting... :D Thanks for sharing your thoughts !!

My vision of the 7 transformations was really simple, based on what Sunako experimented...
1) You - Sunako - can live in the same house than those dazzling guys if you'll be careful to not be exposed to their radiance. (first chapters)
2) You can bear to go to school if you wear a hat (fringe chapters)
3) You can have fun with those guys and they are your family (Halloween, Christmas and Takenaga chapters)
4) You can stand to live with Kyouhei, the radiance's prince (kiss chapters)
5) You can have friends at school (chapters with the girls : festival & goukon)
6) Guys can fall for you (prince chapters)
7) ... He, he, he... Need I say it ??? :sly:

I have to think more about your categories...
But I totally agree with the cyclic time...

[edenwest]

That's pretty interesting... :D Thanks for sharing your thoughts !!

My vision of the 7 transformations was really simple, based on what Sunako experienced...
1) You - Sunako - can live in the same house than those dazzling guys if you'll be careful to not be exposed to their radiance. (first chapters)
2) You can bear to go to school if you wear a hat (fringe chapters)
3) You can have fun with those guys and they are your family (Halloween, Christmas and Takenaga chapters)
4) You can stand to live with Kyouhei, the radiance's prince (kiss chapters)
5) You can have friends at school (chapters with the girls : festival & goukon)
6) Guys can fall for you (prince chapters)
7) ... He, he, he... Need I say it ??? :sly:

I have to think more about your categories...
But I totally agree with the cyclic time...




I really like the way you demonstrate Sunako’s evolution … I think that you can go further in your analysis: the steps you note only resume the beginning of each transformation… But maybe they create some arcs in the storyline…

1) she can live with radiant creatures but
she doesn’t find the guys (except Kyohei) radiant anymore after the fiasco of Kyohei’s seduction scene (chapter 35-36)… she has become immune to them, or, more probably, Kyohei’s attraction is more powerful for her. And after that, for making him come back home, she tries to become radiant for making him understand, but she doesn’t try to show the other housemates what she sees… because she has hurt Kyohei, but also because she is used to the others…

2) (…) more generally, she can progressively show herself :
* she has a fringe – a hat – nothing
(recently, she can go out without wearing her hat, for example when she and Kyohei want to steal the exam questions)
* the swimsuit arc
she wears a swimsuit at home and alone (when the guys are here, she tries to cover herself)
– she is really embarrassed at the school swimming competition and refuses to wear the normal school swimsuit
– after covering all day, she finally shows her bikini at the beach
* more generally, she can show her body in a unconsciously sexy manner…
At first, when seen by accident in the nude, she is horrified and tries to kill
– when possessed, she pays Kyohei a visit in his room, but after that, she tries to erase that fact and become an “erotic queen” without realising it
-- in the last Christmas chapter, we can see her in a seduction scene, revealing parts of her body, once again without realising completely… but without any bad reaction afterwards
– I don’t know if there’ll be a reaction to her little ‘flirting’ with the two after chapter 96…

3) the guys are first forced housemates, then close friends (in chapter 56, she doubts “I was the only one who thought we were closest friends”), then family (Takenaga chapter, confirmed in the new year chapter)


4) live with Kyohei… : she can’t stand his radiance – she makes him come back home – the two of them live together


5) she becomes accepted… at first, her classmates hang out with her for the culture festival, then they invite her as a friend… the others at school are more tolerant with her : when every girl challenge Sunako for the position of Kyohei’s girlfriend, they feel a certain sympathy for her…
Even her with her two girl best friends, Tamao and Noi, she seems to be more at ease. She’s beginning to accept to be accepted.

6) yeah… but the prince is not the first… before him, the gang leader tried to win her heart… But, I don’t know if she really realises that he is interested in her…
in chapter 96, after he proposes her for the second time, her thoughts slip into the young girl’s ones… she only thinks “I haven’t given the prince the illusion of love”… illusion making reference, in a love context, to Kyohei’s words in previous chapters, by the way…

7)… err… she ‘sleeps’ (faints) near Kyohei when living together… she sleeps with him in a recent chapter… there aren’t more parts…yet

Yeah... I hope all that make some sense...

To resume, some transformations are already completed, those related to the gang … some others are not fully yet, she can still make much more progress (in her relation to herself, in social relationships and, of course, in love)… I really like your 7 steps and the way you make them the rules of Sunako’s new life (you can…)… thanks!


In a totally different matter, is it me, or Kyohei always seems to have ESP?

[HMR1]

Yep, yep, yep, that makes sense !!!!!!! :<3:
And yes, it's like steps that she takes up...
I totally agree with what you said about the arcs... The same themes come again with a deeper involvement of Sunako...
I'll just add some remarks...
1) Yes ! She is getting used to the other guys and at the same time, they are more thoughtful towards Sunako than Kyouhei.
Remind the chapter where Ranmaru is full of doubts about the type of girls he likes, and goes to see Sunako and tries to kiss her. She has a nosebleed. Kyouhei is harsh with Sunako. He drags/ binds/ hits her...
2) I like your analysis... And it's also some of the moments where Sunako is beautiful : when she doesn't care about being seen and is totally confident.

3) About living with the guys, we can mention as a parallel evolution, the "disappearance" of her dolls.
They were her friends with whom she talked. Now, minus the supernatural creatures (ghosts, vampires...), the only dark themes are about objects she appreciates as a gothic fangirl : clothes, the zombies' game... Somehow, a "usual" like for a teenager... The dolls haven't appeared as her confidents lately.
4) About bearing to live with Kyouhei, we can mention the recurrent "food arc". It's an interesting one. Because it is used or from the point of view of Kyouhei, or from Sunako's one...
- the first chapter : her cooking makes the guys and Kyouhei accept Sunako has a real "human being", even if scary.
- during the golden week chapter, Kyouhei has a fight with her about food : "you won't have to do this bothering thing anymore" --> I don't want to eat something that is cooked as it was a hard duty.
- when Kyouhei doesn't eat her cooking because he's helping in a restaurant, she is anxious to know what is wrong with her cooking' skills. She is self-centered here.
- the prince's chapters : Kyouhei reminds her the radiance of the rice --> don't look for stranger cooking and don't loose yourself, remind why Japanese one is good.
- the cooking contest chapter : she unconsciously cooks something Kyouhei will eat, even if he was not supposed to be the "judge" of the contest.
- the New Year chapter : she didn't cook to please to the guys but to use the leftovers, but after, she felt sorry to have done this way.
And about living with Kyouhei, there are also the "saving chapters".
It's a dazzling creature, but she always saves him.
And vice versa, she is really a troublesome girl, but he always saves her.
But for the moment, I think there is an unevenness between them... Each one saved the other from "physical" dangers (kidnappings, fights, fire, etc...) but Kyouhei also tries to save Sunako from "emotional" dangers : the wedding with the prince, a "deception in friendship/love" ( c45 "Sunako is champion", c90 "Sunako becomes a star")
6) About, "Love is an illusion"
I do think that she didn't notice that the gang's leader was in love with her... She was only thinking about Hiroshi... So, what's happening with the prince is interesting... For the moment, Sunako herself is convinced that "love is an illusion". In the vampire's chapters, she didn't understand the choice of Elizabeth. She didn't understand why this creature who had the chance to live in the dark world wasn't happy...
7) You mention living and sleeping... What about a "kiss arc" ? :sly:
There was the first kiss when she was possessed by the first Elizabeth. There was the kiss that Kyouhei did in her cheek after she saved him... And there was the kiss chapter, this "harassment" that Kyouhei made...

And at last,
In a totally different matter, is it me, or Kyohei always seems to have ESP?
You mean Extra-Sensory-Perception, nee ?
Yes, he has !!!! Remind the hospital's chapter !!
He's pretty happy because he can see the ghost (when Sunako can't... :lol:)

[Clayshell]

for awhile the guys never mention the free rent thing

[edenwest]

Yeah, friendship is more important now than free rent : their goal is to make her happy (with Kyohei) and the lady thing is for her to be more confident... and no doubts trying to change her has become some sort of a habit...


Yes ! She is getting used to the other guys and at the same time, they are more thoughtful towards Sunako than Kyouhei.
Remind the chapter where Ranmaru is full of doubts about the type of girls he likes, and goes to see Sunako and tries to kiss her. She has a nosebleed. Kyouhei is harsh with Sunako. He drags/ binds/ hits her...


About the different attitude between Kyohei and the others guys towards Sunako, I believe that’s why Sunako has a deeper relationship with him… He doesn’t treat her as a girl most of time (although occasionally he can be more gallant… when saying for example that it’s dangerous for girls to be in the streets at night, in the first chapters, or telling her that she “can easily beat her aunt with that dress” she’s wearing… the exceptional occurrence then makes a special sense to these words)… he treats her in his own harsh way as an human being, he makes her be in her eyes an human being, not only a dark creature (they are all inhuman in a way or another : dolls, dead – skeletons, ghosts, vampires, zombies-, killers, …)
The only “dark” being who is alive is the horror-loving prince… who seems a darken version of Kyohei (same bangs, same eyes behind the glasses, a true prince like Kyohei is an imaginary one… Sunako can cook for him too… and is suited for him). He is his alter ego made in Sunako’s criteria… that’s why, once again, between him and Kyohei, it’s a choice between (personal) ideal and reality.
Kyohei, while sometimes obsessed with the lady thing, at first, finally is the only one who daily treats her for who she is, not who she could be (a perfect lady, a dreamed girl in love)… he tries to change her to comfort her, not for making her fit a stereotype (if I remember well, in the very first chapter, he is the only one who didn’t seem to have dreamt about a perfect housemate, and is scowled by his friends for being too cold…)



About living with the guys, we can mention as a parallel evolution, the "disappearance" of her dolls.
Spoiler:
They were her friends with whom she talked. Now, minus the supernatural creatures (ghosts, vampires...), the only dark themes are about objects she appreciates as a gothic fangirl : clothes, the zombies' game... Somehow, a "usual" like for a teenager... The dolls haven't appeared as her confidents lately.


If I remember correctly, I think Hiroshi has lost his importance after Kyohei decided to sacrifice himself to retrieve him… She may have unconsciously chosen her best friend as the one who can actively be here for her… When they live alone, she doesn’t bring her favourite doll…

About bearing to live with Kyouhei, we can mention the recurrent "food arc". It's an interesting one. Because it is used or from the point of view of Kyouhei, or from Sunako's one...

Spoiler:
- the first chapter : her cooking makes the guys and Kyouhei accept Sunako has a real "human being", even if scary.
- during the golden week chapter, Kyouhei has a fight with her about food : "you won't have to do this bothering thing anymore" --> I don't want to eat something that is cooked as it was a hard duty.
- when Kyouhei doesn't eat her cooking because he's helping in a restaurant, she is anxious to know what is wrong with her cooking' skills. She is self-centered here.
- the prince's chapters : Kyouhei reminds her the radiance of the rice --> don't look for stranger cooking and don't loose yourself, remind why Japanese one is good.
- the cooking contest chapter : she unconsciously cooks something Kyouhei will eat, even if he was not supposed to be the "judge" of the contest.
- the New Year chapter : she didn't cook to please to the guys but to use the leftovers, but after, she felt sorry to have done this way.



For the food arc… They share moments eating together (chocolate strawberry crepes, fruit milk, yakitori,…) It has become between the two a sort of give and take (with a good connotation here), a way to comfort and to communicate…
Kyohei feeds her – he is forced- before telling her that the-guy-who-called-her-ugly isn’t the only guy… he feeds her while the moon watching episode, after she intends to take sleeping pills before the goukon… he gives her chocolate when he believes she has been bumped… And, last but not least, they want to give each other the last chocolate before fainting during the extreme studying session…
By the way, Sunako first cooks for them as a ‘thanks’ in a very subtle way after Kyohei came in search for her…
And if I’m not mistaken, it isn’t mentioned he loves food before tasting hers…



I agree about the kiss arc! But what about the ‘awkward position’ arc? They communicate often while being one on top of the other, don’t you think? And, after the failed tentative of seduction by Kyohei, she is generally on top…
They come to forms of reconciliation in that way : after their first real kiss… after the failed love realisation, at the beach, which reactivate the possibility of a real love story (initiated by Kyohei, who’s on top) for the reader, after that previous disaster…


And, for Kyohei having Extra-Sensory-Perception, he can see the ghost at the hospital, and the ghost can only be seen near him (Sunako is afraid). He understands that Sunako is possessed by the ghost of a serial killer, the first appearance of fantastic…. He is regularly targeted by dark creatures (vampire, cat…)
He is cold in chapter 96, just as the cat… He feels what the ghost feels…

[HMR1]

That's great !!!!! Everything you said !!! :D Say more !!! More, more !!!
I'm tired, but it's so great to talk about PGE... I hope my comments won't ramble too much...


The only “dark” being who is alive is the horror-loving prince… who seems a darken version of Kyohei (same bangs, same eyes behind the glasses, a true prince like Kyohei is an imaginary one… Sunako can cook for him too… and is suited for him). He is his alter ego made in Sunako’s criteria… that’s why, once again, between him and Kyohei, it’s a choice between (personal) ideal and reality.

I agree with your presentation of the pair Kyouhei/prince. And I believe that the mangaka is really playing with ideal/ reality... In appearance, the ideal of Sunako is the prince, but not in reality...
Yes by his looks, his interests, the prince seems to be the good one... Plus he is the first "dark guy" to show a real and sincere interest for Sunako (not like the guys of the c45 and c90). But when I see his actions, it's hard to believe than he can match the values of Sunako.
- What he did to Kyouhei in the c80 was abusive and coward (what Sunako can't tolerate in the c45)
- Plus I don't like the eargerness he had to come to Japan and to propose to Sunako. He seems to be in a hurry : he wants to avoid the official fiancee his parents chose for him. I can't help wondering if he had already come if it wasn't the case...
But at the moment, he has the advantage. The prince knows what he wants when Kyouhei is still doubting about what he feels. He frowns when Kyouhei saves Sunako from falling. He doens't want to miss his chance. The prince proposes to Sunako when Kyouhei does nothing about the proposal : one, because it's his childish scheme of action in front of Sunako (Do whatever you want, I don't mind/ You're bothering me you troublesome girl), two, maybe he thinks she isn't ready/can't understand.
Well, ideal or real, the problem is still that Sunako isn't considering them this way... *sigh*

If I remember correctly, I think Hiroshi has lost his importance after Kyohei decided to sacrifice himself to retrieve him… She may have unconsciously chosen her best friend as the one who can actively be here for her… When they live alone, she doesn’t bring her favourite doll…
Yes, Hiroshi just makes some appearances... She lives alone in the c70. You can see Hiroshi when she is about to leave the house after the kiss in the c75 :
http://media4.onemanga.com/mangas/00000164/000038951/31.jpg
And also in the next chapter when auntie suddenly intruded in her bedroom (she tries to hide the dolls behind her back... :lol:) :
http://media4.onemanga.com/mangas/00000164/000046901/18.jpg
And since then, I don't remember to see it. But I didn't check. So, the dolls were still in the scenery but there wasn't any discussion with them.

I agree about the kiss arc! But what about the ‘awkward position’ arc? They communicate often while being one on top of the other, don’t you think? And, after the failed tentative of seduction by Kyohei, she is generally on top…
They come to forms of reconciliation in that way : after their first real kiss… after the failed love realisation, at the beach, which reactivate the possibility of a real love story (initiated by Kyohei, who’s on top) for the reader, after that previous disaster…

Yes, yes... There is a lot of those situations... With two kind of ends...
- A beginning of realization/consciousness... Often it's a fight/ competition scene... I see those fights/competitions as the translation of the feelings they hardly are able to realize and express : as if they were missing the point... Then, there is this awckward situation.
They are moments where Sunako has some consciousness of Kyouhei but melts (as sand in the c75), has a nosebleed (in the c88)...
Kyouhei also shows some reactions : he's embarassed in the c66...
http://media4.onemanga.com/mangas/00000164/00000066/28.jpg
- A blind alley !!! Typically those teasing chapters that are so desperating for us !!!
What about the parallel between c87 (shrimp chapter) and c93 (Christmas chapter) ? Awkward situation + food !!!!!
In the c87, Kyouhei pursues Sunako and he firmly grabs her. Then she escapes by putting a shrimp in his mouth. And it ends from "It was you", to "that were the shrimps"... Denial and they part.
In the c93, Sunako is drunk and seems to attack Kyouhei. She is feeding him with cake...And it ends as we know... Irrational, brainwashed, but they are having fun together... lol

And, for Kyohei having Extra-Sensory-Perception, he can see the ghost at the hospital, and the ghost can only be seen near him (Sunako is afraid). He understands that Sunako is possessed by the ghost of a serial killer, the first appearance of fantastic…. He is regularly targeted by dark creatures (vampire, cat…)

Yes... And for me it shows that Kyouhei is meant for Sunako. The one you may love hasn't to be identical. Sameness isn't the best criterion.
Kyouhei has some common interests with Sunako (games, videos, figths), but not only. He understands her and he is also complementary : he can sense when she is possessed and save her (as we could say : he loves to eat/ she loves to cook...)
And the fact that he is often targeted by dark creatures for me shows that there isn't a wall between dark and dazzling beings. Dark ones are attracted by dazzling ones. As the ying and the yang, the male and the female... They are complementary...

He is cold in chapter 96, just as the cat… He feels what the ghost feels…

You mean when when he parts Sunako from the prince and tries to avoid the spirit to possess Sunako ??
I didn't understand it this way. For me, Kyouhei hasn't the same feelings : he tries to protect her. "Come on Snap outta it"
The cat is full of sorrow and resentment against the two guys because of whom he lost his mistress.
Sunako is possessed after the prince makes clear the choice : "Between Kyouhei and me...". She doesn't understand why she has to choose and can't face it. Then she is easily possessed by the thoughts of the spirit cat : "If those two weren't..."
But in some way, it's a one-sided love metaphore :
Kyouhei/Prince ---> Sunako --> Cat --> Mistress --> Lovers who fought and died

[edenwest]

Thanks a lot for your enthusiastic reaction! I really, really, really enjoy talking about PGE too!!


I agree with your presentation of the pair Kyouhei/prince. And I believe that the mangaka is really playing with ideal/ reality... In appearance, the ideal of Sunako is the prince, but not in reality...
Yes by his looks, his interests, the prince seems to be the good one... Plus he is the first "dark guy" to show a real and sincere interest for Sunako (not like the guys of the c45 and c90). But when I see his actions, it's hard to believe than he can match the values of Sunako.
- What he did to Kyouhei in the c80 was abusive and coward (what Sunako can't tolerate in the c45)
- Plus I don't like the eargerness he had to come to Japan and to propose to Sunako. He seems to be in a hurry : he wants to avoid the official fiancee his parents chose for him. I can't help wondering if he had already come if it wasn't the case...
But at the moment, he has the advantage. The prince knows what he wants when Kyouhei is still doubting about what he feels. He frowns when Kyouhei saves Sunako from falling. He doens't want to miss his chance. The prince proposes to Sunako when Kyouhei does nothing about the proposal : one, because it's his childish scheme of action in front of Sunako (Do whatever you want, I don't mind/ You're bothering me you troublesome girl), two, maybe he thinks she isn't ready/can't understand.
Well, ideal or real, the problem is still that Sunako isn't considering them this way... *sigh*


I totally agree with you: the prince is obviously not the « good one » for Sunako… She isn’t either really interested in him in a romantic way… she seems to see him as a ‘horror pal’, a friend with the same hobby, more than a potential lover… In fact, who thinks he’s suited for her? Aunty, the guys and Noi… in other words, the same who are mistaken by appearance in a regular basis…
And is he really interested in Sunako, in her true self? As you said he is a little too much in a hurry. We can question his feelings: he doesn’t know nothing about her, her past, her doubts and fears, he only knows and likes the part of her that resembles him… marrying Sunako is more a nice way to keep his life as he wants, in his world but with his parents’ approval (that is to say married, same with Aunty and her dream of an hypothetic Sunako in love)… His love for her may be sincere, but stays superficial.
Moreover, even though we can define him as a kind of dark creature, he doesn’t share the vision of a world divided into light and darkness: he doesn’t think Kyohei is not suited for his dream girl because he is dazzling; he only wants to win her heart first… Compare with Sarasara-kun, who said “radiant people should be with radiant people and gloomy people should be with other gloomy people”: Sarasara-kun admires Sunako because she is proud of her dark, scary, gloomy side; he understand the darkness, although for him it’s not so scary, it’s more related to stars than to night, it’s far less deep than Sunako’s version… but he doesn’t like her. With these two guys, you can see two kind of selfish reaction towards Sunako : the prince likes her but doesn’t notice he doesn’t exactly know her, Sarasrara admires her way of being but uses her to run away… They are mostly attracted to the image they have made themselves of Sunako than in her true personality… Reality and appearance…

(By the way, we can notice that darkness is often choose as a way to escape from a failure in love - Sunako/ ugly girl, Noi and Tamao almost joined her when they felt rejected, Sarasara-kun of course, the vampire who though Elisabeth had abandoned him for the love of a young human belonged beforehand to the darkness but tried to grab Sunako more into it)

Here is the difference with Kyohei : they have needed a few steps before becoming close: mutual incomprehension, challenge with a bit of care, progressive faith into the other, weird friendship with latent attraction… when has love (or kind of) really begun? So they share a bond, slowly built… not defined by external appearance. They are partly alike, but that isn’t visible before quite a time… I think the first time someone in the manga has begun to thought they were really suited for each other was when they had a very similar reaction after the guys had told them they would pose as a fake couple for Aunty… Before that, only Noi, the romantic at heart, wanted to see a potential between them.


And agree once again! Sunako and Kyohei are complementary, white and black, ying and yang… But that is’t meant as a general rule : there are different kinds of love. While Kyohei and Sunako are alike/ opposed, the serious Takenaga is a significant contrary of the over-enthusiastic Noi, same as the drama-queen Ranmaru and the expressionless Tamao
Nevertheless, Aunty and Darling seemed quite similar, and Yuki and Machinko are both kind, slightly jealous and quite insecure (or so appears Machinko, we didn’t see her enough to know more).
Definitively, love isn’t shown in a cliché way: two people aren’t in love because they are suited for each other (similar, opposed or both for a complementary combination) but because they learn to know each other and simply begin to love. Love is meant as an acceptation. (Am I overanalyzing it?)
We can compare with when Sunako meets Noi, she is impressed by the couple Noi might form with Kyohei… Takenaga is jealous of him. Kyohei and Noi are seen in the same situation than him and Sunako… arguing, falling on top on one another, Noi feeds him and he teases her… and the mangaka teases us! They are the perfect picture of love in shoujo manga : a handsome tough but nice guy with a pretty, cute and passionate girl …
The same happens when Takeaga and Ranmaru become jealous of the other, Takenaga and Tamao seeming the perfect traditional couple, Noi and Ranmaru the romantic one…


Finally, is Sunako really not considering Kyohei this way? She knows what everybody thinks about her being a great girlfriend for Kyohei (for example during the cooking contest, the date where she is tricked,…), she only unconsciously choose to ignore them…
Adopting the same attitude, she refuses Kyohei to make a move towards her (violent reaction during the various ‘pheromone bomb’ incidents), and therefore doesn’t seem to notice some situations, or she simply tries to erase them afterwards. For instance she was about to let him kiss her in the first restaurant chapter, then became angry when he didn’t (and ate shrimp instead…once again) and she realised she probably wanted him to kiss her…and the whole incident disappears from her mind, melting in a general “I need to return in my beloved darkness”. I found this episode very revealing of her way of thinking…

For Kyohei, maybe it’s a little different… he isn’t so much in denial (although he’s constantly acting as a child, as you very rightly said) : he seems to have become aware of the tenderness he sometimes shows to Sunako but is only incapable of analysing it. The closeness with Sunako cannot in his mind be easily related to the unfamiliar feeling called love, which he probably only knows in a fangirl brutal and harassing way… and he probably didn’t receive much love in his childhood, and only unrequited attention (he is said when returning home to have beaten a shop man’s son who took his picture at three years old, if I remember well).

Yes, Hiroshi just makes some appearances... She lives alone in the c70. You can see Hiroshi when she is about to leave the house after the kiss in the c75

Spoiler:

And also in the next chapter when auntie suddenly intruded in her bedroom (she tries to hide the dolls behind her back... ) :

Spoiler:


And since then, I don't remember to see it. But I didn't check. So, the dolls were still in the scenery but there wasn't any discussion with them.




Hiroshi appears only in your two examples as part of the group of dolls, as a comical (Sunako is soooooo funny, thanks for reminding me!!!) and familiar symbol of her darkness… Maybe the lake of discussion with him or with Josephine is the best sign of her new confidence: she doesn’t need a counsellor, she hasn’t been recently in a great dilemma that might deeply modify her reassuring vision of world (Kyohei’s departure, …)
The last one has been the mirror, but she has solved it by herself quite simply.



For the cat :
Kyohei is cold at the beginning of the chapter, we discover later that the cat was always cold after his mistress had left… He can sense it’s distress. And later this parallelism can be connected with Kyohei’s sorrow when Sunako leaves with the prince for searching the cat (and might leave for good in the gang’s point of view).

Thanks for reading! I hope I didn't get carried away too much...

[HMR1]

Whaaaaou... I just can be enthusiastic !!! You're really welcome !!!!! :D
I totally agree with you: the prince is obviously not the « good one » for Sunako… [...] In fact, who thinks he’s suited for her? Aunty, the guys and Noi… in other words, the same who are mistaken by appearance in a regular basis… [...] His love for her may be sincere, but stays superficial. [...]They are mostly attracted to the image they have made themselves of Sunako than in her true personality… Reality and appearance…

I second you on all of that. :)
And then, even if Sunako and Kyouhei are apparently opposed (the girl that everyone is afraid of but who is truly loved by her parents/ the guy that every girl on earth wants but who was neglected by his parents), you can notice that they are in the same kind of situation.
Both of them are appreciated (by the two guys of c45-c90, the prince for Sunako; the girls for Kyouhei) for the vision people have of them. Nobody is in love with them for the way they really are.
(And sometimes, - even if it would be too recurrent - I think it could be interesting to see appear a female who could have towards Kyouhei the same role than the prince towards Sunako...How would they react ?)

(By the way, we can notice that darkness is often choose as a way to escape from a failure in love - Sunako/ ugly girl, Noi and Tamao almost joined her when they felt rejected, Sarasara-kun of course, the vampire who though Elisabeth had abandoned him for the love of a young human belonged beforehand to the darkness but tried to grab Sunako more into it)
Yes, I agree with you. Humans choose the dark world to escape from relationships' harm : it's like a shelter where they are protected from pain. But when you consider the dark creatures themselves (ghosts, vampires), no one of them is happy in the dark world, and they are all wandering in the humans' world, - all of them because of a love's failure. All of them looking for this love they miss.

And agree once again! Sunako and Kyohei are complementary, white and black, ying and yang… But that is’t meant as a general rule : there are different kinds of love. While Kyohei and Sunako are alike/ opposed, the serious Takenaga is a significant contrary of the over-enthusiastic Noi, same as the drama-queen Ranmaru and the expressionless Tamao
Nevertheless, Aunty and Darling seemed quite similar, and Yuki and Machinko are both kind, slightly jealous and quite insecure (or so appears Machinko, we didn’t see her enough to know more).
Definitively, love isn’t shown in a cliché way: two people aren’t in love because they are suited for each other (similar, opposed or both for a complementary combination) but because they learn to know each other and simply begin to love.

Yessss ! I totally agree ! I guess you have already read the discussion we had here after Dante's comments (http://forum.cireus-anime.com/showthread.php?p=40366#post40366) about the characteristic way of speaking of each character and the Muraki's expression (http://forum.cireus-anime.com/showthread.php?p=40494#post40494) "Tutti frutti" ? So, I won't repeat the ideas...
About the Auntie, I was thinking that she is an alternate character of the dark creatures... I mean she is excessive, ever collecting a new love... She probably have always been excessive, and apparently, with Darling, she used to try all kind of new experiences... But, in some way, all this brilliant -dazzling- decorum and guys (all mismatching) she is accumulating, are just another way to escape from pain... Because the man she truly loved is already dead. I'll say that he already belongs to the dark world. And he comes back and talks to her through Ranmaru because he's worried for her : "Just be happy". Somehow, as the dark creatures, she is looking for a love alike the one she lost.

Love is meant as an acceptation. (Am I overanalyzing it?)

No, you're not... All the characters have the same path to go : at the same time, to accept and estimate themselves the way they are, and to accept their own feelings and to "risk" to have a relationship with someone. Plus, to risk a relationship with someone who is really different.
For example, the chapter where Ranmaru wonders the type of girls he likes, the chapter where Yuki tries to be a perfect guest, those where Noi tries to be someone she is not (when she goes on a trip with Takenaga or when Takenaga was brought back to his home) show how insecure they feel. And what you said about their jealousy reveals that too...

Finally, is Sunako really not considering Kyohei this way? [...] she only unconsciously choose to ignore them…

I still think it's too early for Sunako. She nearly looses her mind in the chapter after the kiss when she becomes aware that "she doesn't hate him", and she only can enunciate this understatement. After, she needs to hang on the idea that "love is an illusion".
Until now, she was fine with Kyouhei being a competition's opponent and game's buddy... She liked to defeat him (I can't help thinking that she also needed to defeat him to feel secure : as if the problem was only the supposed superiority of this dazzling creature...). And from this point of view, the c95 was very nice and new : at the end, they were both truly kind to each other... So the "outbreak" of the prince in the c96 is disturbing this new stage...



For Kyohei, maybe it’s a little different… he isn’t so much in denial (although he’s constantly acting as a child, as you very rightly said) : he seems to have become aware of the tenderness he sometimes shows to Sunako but is only incapable of analysing it.

Yes ! And afterall, it's the first girl he is in love with... :o
Kyouhei acts in a double way :
- he is childish (yelling, teasing...) because he wants to be noticed.
- he is also silent and observing a lot... He is a good observer and he is never wrong about Sunako... (but not for himself, neee ?)
So, it's why even if I understand your explanation about the cat, and that's really credible, I guess I can't believe that Kyouhei was feeling the same than the cat. The cat has sorrow and resentment, and when he possesses Sunako, he wants to kill the prince and Kyouhei that he identifies to his mistress' lovers.
Kyouhei never prevents Sunako from the experiences or the relationships she wants to have (c45; c62 - "meeting the guy" who called her ugly ; c79 - well, it's true that at the end, he ruined the wedding -, c90). He always warns her before and while shows a lot of irritation but never prevents her. He remains "in the corner", to save her at the end... :o The thing he often stopped it's when she locked herself in her room/world : he is the one who the more often get her out...

So, I'm really excited about what the next chapter will bring on !!!

[edenwest]

Plenty of exciting ideas! Thanks! I really like this discussion!


And then, even if Sunako and Kyouhei are apparently opposed (the girl that everyone is afraid of but who is truly loved by her parents/ the guy that every girl on earth wants but who was neglected by his parents), you can notice that they are in the same kind of situation.
Both of them are appreciated (by the two guys of c45-c90, the prince for Sunako; the girls for Kyouhei) for the vision people have of them. Nobody is in love with them for the way they really are.
(And sometimes, - even if it would be too recurrent - I think it could be interesting to see appear a female who could have towards Kyouhei the same role than the prince towards Sunako...How would they react ?)


Hmmm, Kyohei and some truly interested girl… That happened already, but wasn’t very deep. When Aunty tried to transform him in a gentleman, lots of girls were all seduced altogether by his good looks and his personality (hobbies). The Black Lizard concluded that he was fine the way he was: not only his beauty, but his inner self has some charm when he doesn’t keep his defences up and remains natural… (although his death glare is quite appealing too)
More developed, this type of situation would be problematic because of Kyohei’s usual attitude: he doesn’t really get along well with girls (the gentleman chapter was an exception… so was chapter 54, where the girl wasn’t really interested in him), he doesn’t like to be admired. His closest and only real girl friend is Sunako, who seems even friendlier and open to others than him… quite a paradox. Kyohei is afraid of girls… he is someway in the same case than Sunako : they get along, they trust each other because they don’t seem to be in a situation of seduction, so they are secure. The other is not a danger, they don’t risk harassment/ rejection.


About the Auntie, I was thinking that she is an alternate character of the dark creatures... I mean she is excessive, ever collecting a new love... She probably have always been excessive, and apparently, with Darling, she used to try all kind of new experiences... But, in some way, all this brilliant -dazzling- decorum and guys (all mismatching) she is accumulating, are just another way to escape from pain... Because the man she truly loved is already dead. I'll say that he already belongs to the dark world. And he comes back and talks to her through Ranmaru because he's worried for her : "Just be happy". Somehow, as the dark creatures, she is looking for a love alike the one she lost.


The idea of Aunty belonging somehow to the darkness is interesting! Like Sunako’s mother, she’s beautiful and deals with danger (wild animals)… either of them is afraid of Sunako’s items… Aunty is scary (remember the video… the guys are terrorized but Sunako thinks “that’s not even scary”… just like her room)…
Aunty is a fascinating character, she certainly deserves her own proper analyse. Just like Hiroshi, by the way…


I still think it's too early for Sunako. She nearly looses her mind in the chapter after the kiss when she becomes aware that "she doesn't hate him", and she only can enunciate this understatement. After, she needs to hang on the idea that "love is an illusion".
Until now, she was fine with Kyouhei being a competition's opponent and game's buddy... She liked to defeat him (I can't help thinking that she also needed to defeat him to feel secure : as if the problem was only the supposed superiority of this dazzling creature...). And from this point of view, the c95 was very nice and new : at the end, they were both truly kind to each other... So the "outbreak" of the prince in the c96 is disturbing this new stage...


I don’t know if she is ready or not… I spontaneously don’t think so either. She seems as dense, reluctant and stubborn as ever, that’s for sure. Still, every time she has made some kind of emotional progress, she never seemed ready, she was pushed forwards, forced by special circumstances to think about a question she couldn’t ignore any longer.
In the chapter you mentioned, she nearly loose her mind, that’s right, but I’m not really sure exactly what is her anxiety about : I mean, is “I don’t hate him, do I? ” referring to her reluctance to accept that she, Sunako, has non hostile feelings for Kyohei? Or that she, dark being, feels that way about a dazzling creature? Is her almost breakdown related to herself or to her conception of world? When the guys first state that she doesn’t really hate him, she remembers some memories she shares with him… bad memories in her point of view: when she beat him, when they were eating crepes before fighting for them (very lovey-dovey moment…and she is unaware of it), when they suffered food poisoning after another sweet moment (she told him it hadn’t been painful living with him and the guys…). To put it simply, for her, Kyohei was at fault in every of these occasions … and then, she remembers the kiss, another ‘nice’ moment which turned bad (when she realized) and Kyohei was once again to blame… All those things make it a very personal matter, between Kyohei and herself. On another hand, after kicking him, she yells: “ I will not yield to radiant creatures”… So I don’t know, it’s quite ambiguous (that’s generally the case with Sunako)… That point may seem pointless, but I really believe it is essential: Sunako could more easily accept that the division of world between radiant and dark might be quite permeable (after all, she effectively lives with the four princes) than she could admit that she can fall in love again… she is too insecure. And darkness and ugliness were connected at first, but I think darkness has become for Sunako a part of her and has gains its autonomy in some way. (And I’m probably heavily overanalyzing again…)
Moreover, Sunako in spite of herself is little by little becoming bolder.
Compare the diamond chapter with the last scene in chapter 96. In the former, what happened contrasts highly with Sunako’s usual behaviour : she’s naked, at night, in his room, on top of him, in a close proximity… All these elements have already been used to define Sunako’s normality:

-compulsive pudor

-the night : she punches Ranmaru as a reflex when he pays her a visit in her room

-the room : when she comes into Kyohei’s… for murdering him… nursing and murdering him… and later when she thinks of herself as beautiful and comes to give him shrimps (“because I though I was pretty, I went to that man’s room”, so the room thing is significant)

-she’s constantly on top of him but she probably doesn’t interpret it as a sexual indication

-she tries to avoid at any cost being physically close to him

So, this clearly isn’t the real Sunako, which would have normally reacted as she really has when they spend their first night together in their little apartment… Here, she says “N…”, she tries to refuse… Sunako is not acting, that’s the cursed diamond.
But, in the very intriguing cat chapter
the situation seems similar but isn’t really. Sunako’s behaviour is quite different : she isn’t passive anymore like before : in the diamond chapter, she was naked, “she” was letting Kyohei take action (he was frozen)… here, she’s almost fully clothed and takes action, caressing his torso and taking his yukata off… in a way that’s remind the hilarious body building chapter, but far more intense. And Kyohei’s reaction is quite significant too : he doesn’t seem (until now) embarrassed or frozen, but rather expectant, in suspense… he let her touch him rather intimately after all. And I believe that’s Sunako’s doing this time, not the cat’s in her. The cat needed cuddling (in a feminine way, but also as a cat would) to lure the prince outside and alone. When alone with Kyohei, the cat doesn’t need to deceive him, because Kyohei already knows about him. Besides, Kyohei is already pined against the futon’s mattress and can be stranguled. So the cat doesn’t need to touch him – as a woman- and to take off his clothes. Sunako does. Or so I think.
Of course, I don’t know how this incident will end. Probably taking one step back, as always. But the whole scene is nevertheless very noteworthy for someone as asexual as Sunako normally is… and a nice add to the ‘awkward position’ arc!

To conclude, ready or not, that doesn’t mean we cannot have something more in some next chapter. Tomoko Hayakawa often uses that trick: when we, naïve readers, are waiting for sweetness, we only find a fight, a lousy comment or (recently) a pair of drunkards… Whereas, at the most unexpected moments, there is a gift: a real kiss, a hug, a smile… The art of keeping up our hopes and curiosity …



Yessss ! I totally agree ! I guess you have already read the discussion we had here after Dante's comments about the characteristic way of speaking of each character and the Muraki's expression "Tutti frutti" ? So, I won't repeat the ideas...


Yeah, I’ve read again the discussion you mentioned (very helpful, thanks a lot!). The ‘tutti frutti’ talk after Muraki’s comment and your own previous posts (sorry, I cannot put active links to save my life… too clumsy…) make me realize something: as you previously noted everyone in their house lakes of something. They also represent five sort of loneliness, especially for high-school students. Takenaga was and is still somehow a bookworm, without friends at all; Ranmaru remains a playboy, but he had no (male) friends before coming in the mansion; Kyohei could be a bad boy, always in fights, impolite, he’s a potential delinquent; Yuki is the most friendly of them, he can easily make friends, but he’s a kid, he cannot be considered as the almost grow-up he normally should be : for example when he saves Kyohei, nobody except Kyohei takes him seriously, people (kidnappers and the guys) only see him as a cute child. He feels inferior compared to the others, he challenges Ranmaru and finds Kyohei cooler than him, when meeting Takenaga and Ranmaru, rich and gorgeous, he doesn’t realize he’s handsome too… Last but not least, Sunako is a typical loner, living in her own imaginary world.
Five archetypal extreme attitudes for teenagers and, as you said, five ways to grow up…


Kyouhei acts in a double way :
- he is childish (yelling, teasing...) because he wants to be noticed.
- he is also silent and observing a lot... He is a good observer and he is never wrong about Sunako... (but not for himself, neee ?)
So, it's why even if I understand your explanation about the cat, and that's really credible, I guess I can't believe that Kyouhei was feeling the same than the cat. The cat has sorrow and resentment, and when he possesses Sunako, he wants to kill the prince and Kyouhei that he identifies to his mistress' lovers.
Kyouhei never prevents Sunako from the experiences or the relationships she wants to have (c45; c62 - "meeting the guy" who called her ugly ; c79 - well, it's true that at the end, he ruined the wedding -, c90). He always warns her before and while shows a lot of irritation but never prevents her. He remains "in the corner", to save her at the end... The thing he often stopped it's when she locked herself in her room/world : he is the one who the more often get her out...



That’s right, Kyohei’s whole personality is a curious mix of childish/idiotic/selfish behaviour and a quite surprising smartness. He understands Sunako the best, not only “because he loves her” as the guys said, but because he has proven to have a sharp mind : he was the one who discovered the real murdered in the hot springs case, he loves detective stories (“ a fan of Edogawa and Miwa, after all” in the Black Lizard chapter)… He is observant, as you put it, his analyzes are right, he makes goods deductions… He is intelligent, and his usual idiot label and bad results at school (he doesn’t seem to like studying, just like Sunako) may make us easily forget that quality.
And I don't think he really would react the same way as the cat... I think the mangaka put them in a comparison by the cold /rejection feelings parallelism... That's once again an 'almost the same but in fact quite different' development... Kyohei would with no doubt want Sunako's happiness, I totally agree with you... Now, will it be right?

Sorry for my many mistakes/ silly arguments/ pointless remarks… I’m pretty tired and hope what I meant was clear… Thanks for reading!

[HMR1]

Whaaaaa... Thank you again !!! :D So many things in my head... That's a brainstorm ! I don't know where to start !!!! Sorry, if it comes out in a lacking order.

Hmmm, Kyohei and some truly interested girl… That happened already, but wasn’t very deep. When Aunty tried to transform him in a gentleman, lots of girls were all seduced altogether by his good looks and his personality (hobbies). The Black Lizard concluded that he was fine the way he was: not only his beauty, but his inner self has some charm when he doesn’t keep his defences up and remains natural… (although his death glare is quite appealing too)

Errrr... I didn't really explain why I meant...
First, about Kyouhei. Of course, Kyouhei is fine the way he is... And all those girls/ women even if they are surprised by his behavior, at last, fall for him... The one who didn't understand that was Auntie who wanted him to become a perfect man as she wanted Sunako to be a perfect lady... Her obsession of perfection has to do with her search of true love. She worries about Sunako, she wants her to be happy, and she is looking for the perfect man for her niece... Where she is totally wrong : she is only chasing after a ideal picture of happiness (handsome, rich...) Plus, how can that work ? It's her who is picking the guys, not Sunako who doesn't feel concerned/involved... It's forcing her and like giving her another kind of dolls...
So, when I said that I wanted to see a girl who could have towards Kyouhei the same role than the prince towards Sunako appear; in fact, I was thinking from Sunako's point of view.
You recalled well the c69 where Kyouhei is involved with another girls. He has no interests in them and bears the situation because he has no choice. Sunako hasn't got any reaction : I mean no jealousy, no insecurity about a rival. We can consider that is because she hasn't any feelings towards Kyouhei ; or in an total fangirl optimistic way, that even unconsciously, she knows that she doesn't need to worry... (yep, me daydreaming here !!! :lol: she was just envious about the big kite and the ninja's thing. Plus she was asleep when the Black Lizard started her sexual harrassment on Kyouhei...).
But, what would happen if a girl who has the same interests than Kyouhei, and who clearly says that she is in love with him appears ? What if Kyouhei was totally fine to share some moments with her as Sunako is happy to share her interests with the prince ? How would Sunako react ?
Obviously it would be interesting from Kyouhei's point of view too... A girl that wouldn't rape him first, but would show a sincere interest for him and share the same hobbies – and all of that without screaming, fainting, nosebleeding, neither hitting, or running away like Sunako ? What will he do in front of a possible and peaceful relationship without any troublesome event ? In front of the reassuring temptation of the mirror... To be with someone who is another you ?
I don't know if Kyouhei would be tricked by this... He knows that Sunako is wrong but won't he be tempted ? I'll connect it with what you said here :
Kyohei is afraid of girls… he is someway in the same case than Sunako : they get along, they trust each other because they don’t seem to be in a situation of seduction, so they are secure. The other is not a danger, they don’t risk harassment/ rejection.
Yes, they are taming each other and spending more and more time together. They are secure and at the same time unconfortable. Kyouhei doesn't try to seduce her, but she feels unconfortable, because since the beginning, she isn't indifferent (remind the first chapters when she is looking the fat of her tummy). Sunako doesn't harass Kyouhei, they can have fun, but does he really feel secure ?
The fact is until now the few times where he presented Sunako as his girlfriend / went out with her, were to save himself (to trick or to please to Auntie, during the Valentine's Day, the meat's chapter, etc...) He doesn't voluntarily risk himself in this relationship. And my guess is that this one is too important for him.
Kyouhei and Sunako are both victim of the vision they inspire to other people; and they are both really insecure about love. Kyouhei's mother rejected him. His father was overseas, and didn't know about his current situation. He was and still is harrassed by all kind of people (girls, men, bosses, even grannies can't help fainting...) but no one searches to know the real him. When he was a kid, it seems that things were already like this and he became really distrustful. When he arrived to the mansion, he even thought that Auntie have sold him.
Now, the girl he likes is always running away from him. Plus, she yells, she beats him and she always wins against him (and as you said she's always on top of him...) But he's a really strong guy. Isn't he only being weak ? Plus, he does nothing to improve this relationship : he observes. He let her experience whatever she wants. Yes, he wants her to be happy. But at the same time, I believe he does nothing because he may be scared of being rejected. As when Sunako went with him to his house.
When Kyouhei makes a move in a sentimental/emotional way towards Sunako, -as her-, it's when he's loosing his consciousness, and then all his fears : because he is hyptnotized (he tried to sleep with Sunako in the c35, and I think he could because he had feelings towards her... He knows what is harassment, and he said to the Black Lizard in the c69, he really hated «those stupid games»), or «brainwashed» (shrimp chapter), drunk (Christmas' chapter)...

I’m not really sure exactly what is her anxiety about : I mean, is “I don’t hate him, do I? ” referring to her reluctance to accept that she, Sunako, has non hostile feelings for Kyohei? Or that she, dark being, feels that way about a dazzling creature?[...] When the guys first state that she doesn’t really hate him, she remembers some memories she shares with him… bad memories in her point of view[...] To put it simply, for her, Kyohei was at fault in every of these occasions … and then, she remembers the kiss, another ‘nice’ moment which turned bad (when she realized) and Kyohei was once again to blame… All those things make it a very personal matter, between Kyohei and herself.

Whaaaa.... You made me doubt !!! Was I too optimistic in my reading of this chapter ???
Well, as you said each time Kyouhei was in fault. This guy who is «too beautiful and radiant», who has nothing to do with her, poor dark being. He was always harassing her. Even so, she realized that even if he did all those things, she doesn't hate him and she doesn't want him to cut his precious face... She would hate him but she doesn't. How can she accept that ? It's why, for once, she doesn't want to kill him, but die herself. In someway, a part of her and of her world's vision is dying here. (In French, we have this expression : «To love, it's to die a bit». Problem of acceptation, again... ;))
And darkness and ugliness were connected at first, but I think darkness has become for Sunako a part of her and has gains its autonomy in some way. (And I’m probably heavily overanalyzing again…)

I'm not sure to have understooden what you said. I agree that at first the dark world seemed to be meant for the ugly ones, but now, more and more, the dark world seems to gather all the people who was hurt by the «love's illusion»...
About the rooms's symbolic you evoked. I agree with you. This symbolic exists.
I already said somewhere that I saw the Sunako's bedroom as the consciousness' black box of Tamaki in Ouran. It's where she feels secure and forgets her pains.
The guy's rooms are not a forbidden world in themselves. Sunako does the cleaning, so she enters into them. Remember the c27 «Oui Monsieur!», when she ate the Yuki's mushrooms and was turned into a «normal» girl. Suddenly the guys are afraid of the books she might discover in their rooms. Kyouhei's room is a dangerous and «forbidden» place because he's there, - the prince of radiance. She enters in the enemy's place. When Kyouhei is ill, the guys didn't leave any choice to her. She had to go. In the diamond's chapter, she was cursed. So, it was against her conscious will.
In the shrimp chapter, when she thinks : “because I though I was pretty, I went to that man’s room», she notices that she transgressed herself the barrier she made. So, she doesn't hate him and even more, she went by herself to his room. She totally forgot about her dark friends : «Wasn't I happy?».

And about the end of the c96, the comparison with the diamond chapter is interesting, but I really don't know...
I guess that as Sunako is cursed, she isn't inhibited, and does things that she would never on earth consciously do. The diamond drives her to this but at the same time, it exploits her burried feelings (it's not by chance that it happens with Kyouhei...) And she woke up because Kyouhei froze.
But here, I hardly can say if it's her or if it's the cat.... The choice that the prince imposed to her is disturbing. And it would be easier if the two guys could disappear. Her subconscious will can match with the cat's resentment. If it's her who is unconsciouly acting and touching him here, you can understand it by her mixed feelings --> I love what I hate/ I hate what I love. What is sure is that Kyouhei doesn't resist when she's strangulating him. For me, somehow, he is defying her like he did in the c75 : «What if I cut myself, don't you hate me?» Here, I see something like : «Are you really going to kill me?» **

Five archetypal extreme attitudes for teenagers and, as you said, five ways to grow up…

Just passing by... Did you notice that Yuki is the one who has all what they could want : a cheering family with nice parents and siblings, a lovable girlfriend who loves him. Yes, there is the distance but it's also symbolic of the road he has to ride.
As you said, Yuki is the kid's type. He still has to grow up, to accept who he is and understand the chance he has.

Arrr... I'm afraid the whole post is a bit nonsensical... :confused:


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
** EDIT : About the reaction's of Kyouhei, and his "expectancy" you mentionned. You can consider that in the diamond's chapter, he already was expectant... The mangaka put Sunako in the worst situation : the harrassing girl's position that Kyouhei really fears (we can think to the c30 at hospital's). First, at the beginning of the chapter : after being attacked by the lion, Sunako directly talks to Kyouhei - "Bright one, my claw scars hurt". And she pounces on him. And later, there is the bed scene. In both scenes, Kyouhei wasn't afraid of her and didn't turn her down. It's Sunako who run away in the second scene. Later, he says to himself that his heart started beating fast. "It can't be helped. I'm a man. It's puberty" (well, the fact is that the most of time it's him who ends naked and not the girl that strips herself... :lol:)
Maybe, in the c96, he shows a mixed of challenge and expectancy. Somehow, it's a set : he may have expectancy if he challenges her this way.

[edenwest]

Thanks for so many great ideas! I kept thinking intensely about what you said! And thanks again for your welcoming reply… I hope mine will make some sense...


First, about Kyouhei. Of course, Kyouhei is fine the way he is... And all those girls/ women even if they are surprised by his behavior, at last, fall for him... The one who didn't understand that was Auntie who wanted him to become a perfect man as she wanted Sunako to be a perfect lady... Her obsession of perfection has to do with her search of true love. She worries about Sunako, she wants her to be happy, and she is looking for the perfect man for her niece... Where she is totally wrong : she is only chasing after a ideal picture of happiness (handsome, rich...) Plus, how can that work ? It's her who is picking the guys, not Sunako who doesn't feel concerned/involved... It's forcing her and like giving her another kind of dolls...


Yes! I totally agree! Obaa-chan effectively tries to give her “another kind of dolls”… In fact, she looks like she wants to treat the gang like puppets, giving them a role to impersonate, making them play a story she created, pulling the strings… She doesn’t think it as bad: she wants the best for Sunako, the daughter she couldn’t have… In a way, she reminds a weirdly well-intentioned step-mother or better a curiously devilish godmother from fairy tales: while Sunako’s real mother only accepts her, Aunty wants her to fit her criteria… but the two of them love Sunako and want her to be happy. They represent two ways of being parents: to totally accept their children and unintentionally let them sink into darkness and loneliness (Sunako’s mother is very caring, but also very symbolically far away) or to ineptly try to change them for their sake, without respecting their true self.
Moreover, I wonder if the landlady doesn’t simply try to recreate with Sunako her own interrupted and idealized love story: a perfect lady loving a fine gentleman, with lots of fun, adventure and romantic moments. Her quest for perfection might be a way to love again by substituting Kyohei and Sunako for Darling and herself.
(I believe a similar idea has already been developed somewhere in this thread (or was it the previous one?), but I can’t find it anymore… so, if that’s the case and if I look like I use ideas previously posted by someone else, I sincerely apologize. It’s always very difficult to remember exactly where an idea comes from, once you have assimilated it… of course, a specific information about that post is more than welcome!)



Yes, they are taming each other and spending more and more time together. They are secure and and the same time unconfortable. Kyouhei doesn't try to seduce her, but she feels unconfortable, because since the beginning, she isn't indifferent (remind the first chapters when she is looking the fat of her tummy). Sunako doesn't harass Kyouhei, they can have fun, but does he really feel secure ?
The fact is until now the few times where he presented Sunako as his girlfriend / went out with her, was to save himself (to trick or to please to Auntie, during the Valentine's Day, the meat's chapter, etc...) He doesn't voluntarily risk himself in this relationship. And my guess is that this one is too important for him.


That’s right!!!! I like your analysis of their relationship… kind of ‘reassuringly insecure’ in a way, a mixed form of security (no open harassment/ clear rejection, trust and weird friendship) and danger (association in the beginning: will she melt/will he be murdered?, the whole dark and light thing, a forbidden relationship… and the totally unsafe feelings). Neither of them would want (consciously or not) to risk losing the stability they’ve achieved… On the other hand, sometimes, he kisses or hugs her: chassez le naturel, il revient au galop… (another French proverb ;)… for people who don’t speak French, that can be very roughly translated as ‘chase away something innate, it would come back at full speed’… corresponds approximately with ‘What is bred in the bone will come out in the blood/flesh’ or ‘a leopard cannot change its spots’… in short, they can deny as much as they want, they will always let a few hints appear despite of their barriers… err… don’t know if it’s clear enough…)

But, I don’t know (I mean I really don’t know): is he aware of the fact that she never was indifferent? Of course, he has often used his dazzling charm to trick her, to bug her or to win… but he occasionally used his beauty against others too, although he dislikes doing so (he striped himself naked in front of the AV staff). He knows that Sunako is embarrassed in front of his good looks (and finds that at the same time funny and irritating), but that doesn’t mean he is conscious of the fact that she is probably interested in him. Does he notice the subtle distinction between the simple admiration he usually gets and the far more problematic attraction Sunako seems to feel?

Here, we come to a very important point of the manga : there is usually at least two ways of deciphering Sunako and Kyohei’s moments. You said :


When Kyouhei makes a move in a sentimental/emotional way towards Sunako, -as her-, it's when he's loosing his consciousness, and then all his fears : because he is hyptnotized (he tried to sleep with Sunako in the c35, and I think he could because he had feelings towards her... He knows what is harassment, and he said to the Black Lizard in the c69, he really hated «those stupid games»), or «brainwashed» (shrimp chapter), drunk (Christmas' chapter)...


but, was Kyohei really hypnotized in chapter 35? Ok, he was entranced by the repetitive words from the guys and Aunty’s threat about the rent, but I wonder if that was enough to hypnotize him. It seems to me that he only snapped after being trapped in a situation where he had to take action towards Sunako : his seduction probably begun as an act (somewhat exaggerated), but when he was about to kiss her, he was moved by her low self-confidence and perhaps her beauty (who know, she was in her non-chibi form after all…). He was sincere, we can see it in his expression when her aunt interrupted them. Moreover, he doesn’t have a ‘come-back to normal’ phase, which he certainly would have had if he was hypnotized, like he had previously. He almost immediately told Sunako “are you that afraid of being alone with me?”
It’s only to justify himself and the way he truthfully reacted that he said “I was hypnotized”. The guys didn’t believe him and, after the consequence of all this mess, with Sunako telling her aunt that she wouldn’t be a lady, they begun to tease Kyohei about his ‘feelings’.
Therefore, we don’t know in fact when he is truly himself or “hypotized” or “brainwashed”… In the shrimp chapter, for instance, the guys tried to convince him… he was kind of brainwashed, ok, but he came to realization alone (the waterfall…), so when you think that every deep moment (communication between the two, kiss, hug, personal realization –‘I don’t hate him, do I’ and ‘It was you’) occur when they are alone (the two of them or really alone), you can question if he hasn’t reached by himself the conclusion that he liked her… before cowardly ignoring it.

We can by the way somehow connect that with the shower incident, at the very beginning: Kyohei has told Sunako that he couldn’t have seen her naked in the shower, because of the steam. In fact, she didn’t notice that, even with all that convenient steam, SHE SAW him… so could he really not have seen her? Once again, there is an almost systematic ambiguity in each situation…
Kyohei is, as you very rightly pointed, someone distrustful… but, as a consequence, he’s as well a liar. He would systematically prefer a lie to an embarrassing truth. We can call him dense, denying, manipulative: he lies to the others and to himself. And that’s a great factor for ambiguity, because he’s somehow a complex character. As you said earlier (in this threat, post #171… still don’t know how to insert a link. Yes, I am clumsy!) we don’t easily see past his mask of a rough, indifferent, cool guy. That makes important moments pretty confusing: is what he means the same as what he says? Is there a hidden meaning? What are his true feelings? Is he as clearly unaware of them as he seems to be?
In the same way, in the diamond scene, you said

About the reaction's of Kyouhei, and his "expectancy" you mentionned. You can consider that in the diamond's chapter, he already was expectant... The mangaka put Sunako in the worst situation : the harrassing girl's position that Kyouhei really fears (we can think to the c30 at hospital's). First, at the beginning of the chapter : after being attacked by the lion, Sunako directly talks to Kyouhei - "Bright one, my claw scars hurt". And she pounces on him. And later, there is the bed scene. In both scenes, Kyouhei wasn't afraid of her and didn't turn her down. It's Sunako who run away in the second scene. Later, he says to himself that his heart started beating fast. "It can't be helped. I'm a man. It's puberty" (well, the fact is that the most of time it's him who ends naked and not the girl that strips herself... )
Maybe, in the c96, he shows a mixed of challenge and expectancy. Somehow, it's a set : he may have expectancy if he challenges her this way.


Was Kyohei expectant in this chapter? He seems to me to yell, figuratively speaking of course, “I don’t want to take any kind of action at all!” Everyone perceives that Sunako’s behaviour isn’t normal when she pounces on him… The guys blush and say something among the lines of Sunako having become bolder while Kyohei prefers to ignore the whole incident. Then, at night, he doesn’t know how to react… I’m not sure he wasn’t afraid nor that he was expectant… he was certainly afraid of Sunako’s boldness (it is her usual conduct and he knows it) and, more importantly, he seems to be afraid of himself: when he thinks about it, the way his heart raced, « it can’t be helped, I’m a man, it’s puberty », he doesn’t know what to do nor how to explain his own reaction- or lake of it here, which is significant as you pointed (poor Kyohei… so funny !). The unexpected desire he probably felt cannot fit with the image he wants to have nor to give of himself, a cold guy, who’s indifferent towards women, thus the “I’m a normal man” explanation. He isn’t aware of the significance of his own words “whenever I start to understand that it was Nakahara Sunako, my heart starts beating fast” and he’s totally oblivious of his absence of so-called normal male reaction when another beautiful woman (like the Black Lizard, later) is in Sunako’s place…
This perpetual ambiguity makes this sort of mute scene, without verbal explanation or real comment from the characters (like the hypnotizing acts, or the shower scene) at the same time very deep and pretty tricky, because more than one interpretations are always credible and everybody act afterwards as if nothing has happened! That’s why I don’t give any answer here, I only ask some questions…


I'm not sure to have understooden what you said. I agree that at first the dark world seemed to be meant for the ugly ones, but now, more and more, the dark world seems to gather all the people who was hurt by the «love's illusion»...
About the rooms's symbolic you evoked. I agree with you. This symbolic exists.
I already said somewhere that I saw the Sunako's bedroom as the consciousness' black box of Tamaki in Ouran. It's where she feels secure and forgets her pains.
The guy's rooms are not a forbidden world in themselves. Sunako does the cleaning, so she enters into them. Remember the c27 «Oui Monsieur!», when she ate the Yuki's mushrooms and was turned into a «normal» girl. Suddenly the guys are afraid of the books she might discover in their rooms. Kyouhei's room is a dangerous and «forbidden» place because he's there, - the prince of radiance. She enters in the enemy's place. When Kyouhei is ill, the guys didn't leave any choice to her. She had to go. In the diamond's chapter, she was cursed. So, it was against her conscious will.
In the shrimp chapter, when she thinks : “because I though I was pretty, I went to that man’s room», she notices that she transgressed herself the barrier she made. So, she doesn't hate him and even more, she went by herself to his room. She totally forgot about her dark friends : «Wasn't I happy?».




Alright, what I said wasn’t very clear, sorry…
First of all, Kyohei’s room is not a forbidden place: she cleans the whole mansion so certainly that room too. Nevertheless, when going here at night and alone it surely has a special connotation for her, like in the shrimp chapter or in the same way when Ranmaru comes alone to hers. So, I totally agree with your analysis, about the “enemy’s place”! That’s exactly it!

For the darkness part, well, I mean that we usually analyse the darkness as a whole, well-defined concept. But I get the feeling that it changes at the same pace that Sunako’s attitude is changing.
At first, that’s right, darkness was a refuge for Sunako, closely related to ugliness: she could hide here. Like Hiroshi, she belonged to here because she was hideous and thus rejected. But the guy who rejected her doesn’t look like a dazzling creature.
Nevertheless, progressively, darkness seems to have acquired its own beauty in her mind : Freddy, Jason and the feminine Josephine probably represent an alternative kind of (dark) beauty, in which a beautiful corpse like Kyohei’s would fit.
And then, she met the guys. The time has passed, she could adapt to her new life and a deeper meaning has appeared. Darkness is now clearly defined as the contrary of light, as the truth against illusion, change and appearance. So Sunako has become afraid of being frivolous in chapter 56.
As Sunako progress in her path towards self-confidence, the dark world is apparently less connected with ugliness: the vampire is handsome and, when Sarasara-kun speaks about gloominess against beauty, Sunako finally tells him that he’s only hiding in the darkness for lake of confidence. It seems that the darkness has become someway and sometimes more autonomic, it is a goal, a whole world, with its own rules and magnificence, without so much consideration of normal beauty or ugliness… although that’s not always the case (Sunako is still quite afraid of being exposed).
I hope that makes some sense…


Just passing by... Did you noticed that Yuki is the one who has all what they could want : a cheering family with nice parents and siblings, a lovable girlfriend who loves him. Yes, there is the distance but it's also symbolic of the road he has to ride.
As you said, Yuki is the kid's type. He still has to grow up, to accept who is is and understand the chance he has.


Yes, Yuki is still a kid, but, because of his childhood, which was full of affection, he’s also in a way the most advanced of them. He’s the only one who’s eager to mature. And he seems to do it for him, not because of the others; for instance, he didn’t plane to tell the guys about the love hotel, they only discovered it by accident.



Sorry for my poor grammar and bad spelling! Thanks for reading!

[HMR1]

Sorry for the belate reply... Arrr... I was so enthusiastic when I read your last post... What you said about Auntie and Kyouhei was just phenomenal...
I wanted to take more time to check some ideas before replying, but I had a lot of work... Waiting was so so haaaaard... cause it's so sooooo interesting to chat with you... :D

Yes! I totally agree! Obaa-chan effectively tries to give her “another kind of dolls”… In fact, she looks like she wants to treat the gang like puppets, giving them a role to impersonate, making them play a story she created, pulling the strings… She doesn’t think it as bad: she wants the best for Sunako, the daughter she couldn’t have… In a way, she reminds a weirdly well-intentioned step-mother or better a curiously devilish godmother from fairy tales: while Sunako’s real mother only accepts her, Aunty wants her to fit her criteria…

I really like your comparison with the character of step-mother or godmother. And I agree with what you said about the mother of Sunako : she let her daughter have her own experiences but she is pretty distant, and it's why Oba-chan looks after Sunako.
Auntie wants to give her another kind of dolls, and Sunako is not fooled at all. She perfectly understood :
http://media4.onemanga.com/mangas/00000164/00000001/20.jpg
And yes, Auntie pulls the strings. She didn't tell to Sunako that she'll have to live with those handsome guys, as she didn't mention to those four that there was a little problem with her niece. She tricked them all. Even if she feigns that she didn't notice, she is totally aware of Sunako's complex and how to theorically cure it : her niece needs to find love, to open herself to others. But she doesn't know how to deal with Sunako : she isn't able to talk to her directly as if she was afraid of doing a bad move and losing her affection.

In fact, it's impossible that Auntie just discovered the state of Sunako in chapter 35 when she suddenly came back to the mansion and entered in her bedroom. She says : «Before you were so adorable». She knew it, but she didn't know how to do : here, she cries and wants to throw all of her dolls, then Sunako screams (with her electric eyes and canines !! lol) . It's why she imposed on the guys the impossible mission to turn Sunako into a lady, and she gave them regularly challenges to force them to work on the problem : the first party in the c05, the match meeting in the c08, the swimming competition in c26. In the c35, when she says that it's Kyouhei's fault if Sunako has become like this, she is exagerating. What she thinks probably is : It's his fault, if she still hasn't come back to normal(but she can't confess that) ; and it's why she wants to make their bond stronger by forcing them to sleep together.
When later, Kyouhei tells her in the pub : «Leave her to her housework», I think she recognizes she knew : «I already know that. I don't need you to tell me that. I've known it from the very beginning».
She wants Sunako to be happy but she hasn't got the solution. In the c51, she has herself some doubts about her own style of life as she wants to become a housewife like Sunako to please to her new lover. But that was just a moment of doubt...

Moreover, I wonder if the landlady doesn’t simply try to recreate with Sunako her own interrupted and idealized love story: a perfect lady loving a fine gentleman, with lots of fun, adventure and romantic moments. Her quest for perfection might be a way to love again by substituting Kyohei and Sunako for Darling and herself.

I think there is something like this. First, Auntie wants to find a perfect gentleman for Sunako. Her first try is in the c08 with the match meeting. But she is told that Sunako goes out with Kyouhei, and she is really enthusiastic about their relation when she sees their coordination and fighting :
http://media4.onemanga.com/mangas/00000164/00000017/44.jpg
(Maybe she felt something that those two didn't realize yet?)
And still in the c36, while she is drinking because of the failure with Sunako, when she is told: «You know, you shouldn't switch guys so often», she replies : «But all good men are already dead». So, she doesn't seem to believe in her chances to find a true love as the one she had. In the opposite, she seems convinced that Kyouhei is the good one for Sunako. And it's only in the c66, that she changes her mind when she decides to make Sunako meet the Polchok Kingdom crown's prince : «Forgive me Kyouhei. I know you like Sunako, but I definitely think that jewels are a girl's best friend» As it's a disaster, in the c69, she wants to train Kyouhei instead. A new failure.
So, new switch : in the c79, she lies about looking for bread, to introduce the prince.
And in the c91, she focuses in another interest of Sunako by inviting them to the Halloween's party. She makes the same mistake as the guys in the c56, when they try to turn her into a lady by giving her the kind of gothic dress she'd like. Kyouhei predicts that will be an «epic fail», and then, Auntie defies him : «If that's so, then you look after her, OK.»
So, as we say in French, «elle court deux lièvres à la fois», - she is hunting two rabbits at once. And I wonder if for her, the princes' alternative is not only a second best solution until Kyouhei decides himself to make a move. (Just think about the argument she gave to Kyouhei about the jewels, it matches her exuberant behavior but it can't hold water when we're talking about Sunako...)

Now, let's talk about Kyouhei.
First, I need to say that I loved what you said about him. That was deep !!!
Neither of them would want (consciously or not) to risk losing the stability they’ve achieved… On the other hand, sometimes, he kisses or hugs her: chassez le naturel, il revient au galop… [...] in short, they can deny as much as they want, they will always let a few hints appear despite of their barriers… err… don’t know if it’s clear enough…)
[...] was Kyohei really hypnotized in chapter 35? [...]
Kyohei is, as you very rightly pointed, someone distrustful… but, as a consequence, he’s as well a liar. He would systematically prefer a lie to an embarrassing truth. We can call him dense, denying, manipulative: he lies to the others and to himself.
You well showed the contradiction between his natural tendency that sometimes betrays himself and his habit of lying, at least by omission. I'll just try to illustrate those situations.

Sometimes, Kyouhei let express his natural tendency. When Sunako saved him, he thanked her by kissing her in the cheek (c04) or hugging her (c14). He also kissed her in the cheek when she gave him the money of school's festival. In the c09, when they are at the hotsprings, he confesses that he toyed with her. In those situations, he is grateful and their relationship is not in «danger».

But the most of time, he hides what he really thinks by two ways.
One is by denying and lying. It's obvious, when the interlocutor is Sunako and she is disturbed. He can't tell the truth because she will be hurt. Plus, often, he is trying to avoid the discussion and it's the guys who force him to.
As, you well pointed, in the c03, he says that he saw nothing because of the steam. In the c36, he uses the hypnotized thing as excuse (I agree with you that in the beginning of the c36, he wasn't hypnotized at all !). He lies again in the c53 (Brilliant Accident 2) «Because I've forgotten it, you can also forget about it» (Didn't he just claim "It can't be helped. I'm a man. It's puberty" ??) And in the c75, when he says to Sunako, that was just a «moment of confusion», we can also consider that he is lying. (and what about the c12 and «the passionless kiss» ? It was passionless from Sunako's point of view but from Kyouhei's one ?? Was he only teasing in the c10 when he said : « How about I kiss you once more ?»)
And somehow, isn't he denying too when he replies to the prince in the c96 : «Win or lose, it ain't none of my business».
From this point of view, I wonder if Kyouhei doesn't use the challenges imposed on them by Auntie as a good pretext that clears him to be with Sunako, like in the c35-c36 or in the c66 - he tags along because he has to.

The other way is by omission.
When he is confronted to the guys, he never replies to their embarassing questions/remarks : «You... Saw her ?» (c03): «I wonder... What were you doing ?» (c53); «You love her, you know you really love her» (c62), «what did you do to Sunako-chan?» (c75).- he just can't reply. Probably, because he is himself confused, but because it's also risky. Saying nothing is a way to maintain the status quo.
And when he is confronted to Sunako, he is using the other guys' worries as argument instead of expressing his own ones, as in c05 when Sunako is training for the party : «While I may not care about anything except the free rent, Oda, Yuki and Morii are really working hard for your sake, do you really want their hard work to be wasted». Another example is in the c44 when Hiroshi has been rapted by schoolmates : «Yuki, Takenaga and Ranmaru, everyone is worried about you».
As they have a troublesome relationship (I did like your expression of «personal matter» between them...), it's his manner of convincing her : you won't do it because of me but for their sake.
(As in the c79, he makes her change her mind for the sake of radiance rice...)
So when you think that every deep moment (communication between the two, kiss, hug, personal realization –‘I don’t hate him, do I’ and ‘It was you’) occur when they are alone (the two of them or really alone), you can question if he hasn’t reached by himself the conclusion that he liked her… before cowardly ignoring it.
Personally, I believe it !!!
So, what does he think she feels towards him ?
I don’t know (I mean I really don’t know): is he aware of the fact that she never was indifferent? [...] He knows that Sunako is embarrassed in front of his good looks (and finds that at the same time funny and irritating), but that doesn’t mean he is conscious of the fact that she is probably interested in him. Does he notice the subtle distinction between the simple admiration he usually gets and the far more problematic attraction Sunako seems to feel?
Yes!! Kyouhei knows how to use his beauty... lol... It's a good weapon and teasing trick !
But I think he feels that she has some interest in him, or at least, that she isn't indifferent to the interest he can show for her from time to time. And my reason is that he had a few opportunities to kiss her (in the c17, c36, c44, c46, c59 and c74). I made last year a collage where I put those scenes among others :
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/hmr1_bucket/KTHB.png
It never resulted until the c74, because Sunako fainted or had a nosebleed. But I think that if she lost consciousness in those scenes, it's not because of his good looks but because she was disturbed by the mood settled. She was feeling something different, maybe not in herself but in Kyouhei's behavior. Something sufficiently disturbing/ dangerous to make her faint to escape from awareness. So, I guess Kyouhei sees that she is disturbed by those «weird» feelings (he didn't state them himself) and that she isn't ready to «open the door».

And I'll end with Sunako and the dark world.
At first, that’s right, darkness was a refuge for Sunako, closely related to ugliness: she could hide here. Like Hiroshi, she belonged to here because she was hideous and thus rejected. [...]
As Sunako progress in her path towards self-confidence, the dark world is apparently less connected with ugliness: the vampire is handsome and, when Sarasara-kun speaks about gloominess against beauty, Sunako finally tells him that he’s only hiding in the darkness for lake of confidence.
About the ugliness, and Sunako's obsession of anatomic dolls, there is something that really puzzles me. I agree with you : at first, the dark world appears as a shelter for the ugly things/ beings who would be hurt by the dazzling creatures if they were exposed to their radiance : «If this continue I'll melt and rot to death» «I need to come back to the darkness and fix myself up» (c03), «*I gave up everything that had to do with beauty» (c05).

But Sunako wanted to turn Kyouhei himself into a doll : «For all the torture you've given to me, I'll make you the world's best looking dead body» , «Handsome dead body» (c04). A contradiction appears : the most beautiful creature could belong to the dark world thanks to Sunako. Even if she gave up on her murder's plans, in the c66, she admires Kyouhei's body which is the perfect living model of anatomy she was studying : «I want to become like that soon» to be «placed between Josephine and Hiroshi-kun».
How can Kyouhei be a reference ???

For me, the dark world is also the world of the «honest» beings. The skeletons and anatomic dolls show openly themselves in their true shapes. They are hidden in the dark world but - or because - they don't lie about what they are. So, in the opposite, the dazzling world is also the world of fake. I was thinking and thinking again about the first love of Sunako. She was truly in love with that guy. She certainly thought he had many qualities, but the way he rejected her was horrible. Sunako never stated the guy was bad : she accepted her ugliness as a truth. It's Kyouhei who pointed it : «That guy is the ugly one» (c05). But I can't help thinking that her obsession of anatomic dolls as to do with the real nature of this guy that she couldn't detect because she was blind by her feelings for him. It's like the real feelings could appear with the dissected organs. (You know the French expression : «mettre son coeur à nu» - literally : «to denude one's heart») So, the fact that she has linked sometimes Kyouhei to this dark world could be significant : in spite of his dazzling nature, this guy can be trusted. He is not fake...
Yeah, I know... I'm over-analyzing here... But I do want to believe it... I'm a great believer !!!

(not to mention as I already said somewhere that shows her unconscious desire to have him : dead and brought into the dark world is the only way to safely and peacefully have him... And it's why in the c04 this man who is the "best creation of God" could only "be killed by her" - she was acting like all the dark beings)

Errrr... I committed a pretty long post... I hope I won't bother you...

NB : Last time, I forgot the little appearance of the dolls in the c91... They are just in the scenery...
http://media4.onemanga.com/mangas/00000164/000171762/02-03.jpg

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

EDIT : we already talked a bit about the significance of the dolls in the old PGE thread. I just add the link (http://forum.cireus-anime.com/showthread.php?p=34434#post34434) here to complete.

[edenwest]

My my my ! What an interesting post! It gave me a lot of things to think about (insert Auntie’s evil laughter here)! And without anymore delay, here are the comments!


Sometimes, Kyouhei let express his natural tendency. When Sunako saved him, he thanked her by kissing her in the cheek (c04) or hugging her (c14). He also kissed her in the cheek when she gave him the money of school's festival. In the c09, when they are at the hotsprings, he confesses that he toyed with her. In those situations, he is grateful and their relationship is not in «danger».

I really like your explanation about his lies! And yeah, that’s right! Kyohei looks eager to make a slight move when grateful. His feelings are more spontaneous… But did you notice that in every single of those occurrences, he seems in fact to react to little displays of affection? After the school festival, he starts kissing the guys in the cheek, before kissing Sunako. In the club, the look in his eyes (as always, the more revealing part in Kyohei’s attitude), when Sunako yells « people like you have no right to even touch him » (obvious reference to « immediately apologize to the radiant creature », in chapter 2) shows how much surprised and probably moved he is. In chapter 14, he’s conscious that Sunako became angry because he has been beaten (in order to save her)… Recently in the end of term chapter, she is also worried about him before he hugs her…
I think that that shows a very peculiar side you pointed in Kyohei’s personality: the lake of love/ tenderness in his life. Kyohei knows (or rather thinks) that he is not truly loved by anyone. His housemates, who have become his friends, tell him that there is nothing really loveable in him except his looks… He never stops to retort them that they’re on Sunako’s side, not his.
His mother has rejected him. People just want to see his pretty boy side: for instance, in chapter 11, fangirls saying “even though you have a bad personality and like to fight, your beautiful face, body and voice are your admirable qualities”.
As you noticed earlier, Kyohei has never been in love, but nobody has been in love with him either, he’s only been admired, desired, in the centre of fantasies. When he asks Sunako how she acted towards her first love, he systematically points that fangirls act the same way towards him: it’s a crush, not a real love, meant to last.
In his point of view, nobody deeply cares about him.
That’s why, although it’s credible, I’m still doubtful when you say

Yes!! Kyouhei knows how to use his beauty... lol... It's a good weapon and teasing trick !
But I think he feels that she has some interest in him, or at least, that she isn't indifferent to the interest he can show for her from time to time. And my reason is that he had a few opportunities to kiss her (in the c17, c36, c44, c46, c59 and c74). I made last year a collage where I put those scenes among others :
Spoiler:

It never resulted until the c74, because Sunako fainted or had a nosebleed. But I think that if she lost consciousness in those scenes, it's not because of his good looks but because she was disturbed by the mood settled. She was feeling something different, maybe not in herself but in Kyouhei's behavior. Something sufficiently disturbing/ dangerous to make her faint to escape from awareness. So, I guess Kyouhei sees that she is disturbed by those «weird» feelings (he didn't state them himself) and that she isn't ready to «open the door».

For Sunako, I totally agree: in their intense moments, when they could seem about to kiss, she reacts to the mood rather than to his radiance. But I don’t believe yet that Kyohei is fully aware of it. Is he knowingly ready himself to kiss her then? Or are those incidents just some ‘silent staring moments’ which may usually occur between two people attracted to each other?
When he finally really kisses her, he is moved by her words about his true self, spoken when she takes care of him, when she tries to be gentle with him… Another hint of her concern, even knowing his real self…

So, Kyohei doesn’t open easily to others, he’s distrustful as you pointed earlier and insecure, but not only about love. I can’t help wondering if he isn’t also, between the lines, insecure about himself. He is in some way in the same case than Sunako, he’s a loner, but, instead of choosing a secure imaginary world like darkness, he’s become harsh and arrogant and overly shows a confidence I’m not so sure he deeply has. His usual indifference reminds Sunako’s denying words in the meeting with her old classmates: I don’t care… Kyohei’s façade is just far stronger, this whole personality of him people is used to has entirely formed around his cold attitude.
Both of them need to learn how to trust the others and their own capacities. The same path…
(Overanalyzing again? Errr…)

That’s why it would be only normal for him not to believe that Sunako’s disturbed behaviour could be connected to a stronger feeling.
She rejects him one way or another for example in his parent’s house, and especially when he makes a move, like in the unrequited love chapter (she thinks he’s playing with her feelings, like in the very beginning, “harassing her”, but he doesn’t know that). He’s anxious when he realize he may have feelings for her (symbolically so skinny and fragile in the fried shrimp chapter).
For me, his reticence for love is of course motivated by his fear of being in love but it may also been explained by his belief that nobody will love him for himself.
In the New Year festival, his first reaction after reading his fortune is to wonder who could be this love “he seeks”… Only afterwards, on a second thought he adds that he isn’t interested in love predictions. Quite revealing, ne?


About the landlady being a kind of stepmother/godmother, thanks for your enthusiastic comments!
First of all, I totally agree with your analysis of her knowing somehow the truth about Sunako

In fact, it's impossible that Auntie just discovered the state of Sunako in chapter 35 when she suddenly came back to the mansion and entered in her bedroom. She says : «Before you were so adorable». She knew it, but she didn't know how to do : here, she cries and wants to throw all of her dolls, then Sunako screams (with her electric eyes and canines !! lol) . It's why she imposed on the guys the impossible mission to turn Sunako into a lady, and she gave them regularly challenges to force them to work on the problem : the first party in the c05, the match meeting in the c08, the swimming competition in c26. In the c35, when she says that it's Kyouhei's fault if Sunako has become like this, she is exagerating. What she thinks probably is : It's his fault, if she still hasn't come back to normal(but she can't confess that) ; and it's why she wants to make their bond stronger by forcing them to sleep together.
When later, Kyouhei tells her in the pub : «Leave her to her housework», I think she recognizes she knew : «I already know that. I don't need you to tell me that. I've known it from the very beginning».
She wants Sunako to be happy but she hasn't got the solution. In the c51, she has herself some doubts about her own style of life as she wants to become a housewife like Sunako to please to her new lover. But that was just a moment of doubt...


She must have noticed indeed that her niece is quite a peculiar person. Still, she might not be that aware of how much she has changed since her childhood, how much deep she is into the darkness. After all, Sunako used to live in Hokkaido and Auntie seems to have an eccentric and quite busy life… Don’t forget that her own father didn’t know about her passion. Both her scary and overprotective father and her aunt still see in her the little girl she once was, they have frozen her in their mind in an ideal picture of a non problematic and non aging Sunako. Like some other parents, they discover all of a sudden that their child is no more a kid but a teenager… Pretty funny…
Once again, our dear topic “appearance and reality”, they want to see her the way they want her to be… like in her dreamy vision of Sunako when trying to change the rough guy into a gentleman!

About what you said:

I think there is something like this. First, Auntie wants to find a perfect gentleman for Sunako. Her first try is in the c08 with the match meeting. But she is told that Sunako goes out with Kyouhei, and she is really enthusiastic about their relation when she sees their coordination and fighting :
Spoiler:

(Maybe she felt something that those two didn't realize yet?)
And still in the c36, while she is drinking because of the failure with Sunako, when she is told: «You know, you shouldn't switch guys so often», she replies : «But all good men are already dead». So, she doesn't seem to believe in her chances to find a true love as the one she had. In the opposite, she seems convinced that Kyouhei is the good one for Sunako. And it's only in the c66, that she changes her mind when she decides to make Sunako meet the Polchok Kingdom crown's prince : «Forgive me Kyouhei. I know you like Sunako, but I definitely think that jewels are a girl's best friend» As it's a disaster, in the c69, she wants to train Kyouhei instead. A new failure.
So, new switch : in the c79, she lies about looking for bread, to introduce the prince.
And in the c91, she focuses in another interest of Sunako by inviting them to the Halloween's party. She makes the same mistake as the guys in the c56, when they try to turn her into a lady by giving her the kind of gothic dress she'd like. Kyouhei predicted that will be an «epic fail», and then, Auntie defies him : «If that's so, then you look after her, OK.» So, as we say in French, «elle court deux lièvres à la fois», - she is hunting two rabbits at once. And I wonder if for her, the princes' alternative is not only a second best solution until Kyouhei decides himself to make a move. (Just think about the argument she gave to Kyouhei about the jewels, it matches her exuberant behavior but it can't hold water when we're talking about Sunako...

Well, I like your analysis! She seems indeed to take every opportunity to make Sunako find a perfect match, and, with Kyohei being stubborn… she invites the prince! Nevertheless, there is something here bugging/’tickling’ me about Auntie and I need to think more about it… Mhmmmm…



By the way, speaking about her stepmother/godmother-like character, I’ve thought a little more about the recurrent fairy tale aspect of the whole manga. It’s like a long spun metaphor, developed in two ways…

- by recurrent hints : characters are regularly depicted as princes and princesses… Takenaga is seen at first as a prince by Yuki and appears again as a more traditional Japanese one in chapter 43, while Noi is an occidental princess. Ranmaru and Tamao are always compared to fairy tale protagonists (The Princess of the Sleepy Forest, The Tale of the Prince and the Princess…). For Kyohei and Sunako, that’s become a habit… In fact, they’re usually represented this way when they are seen as the main characters of a love story… the same with the witch (for Sunako, twice: in her dream and cosplaying with a dress) and the white knight, an opposed couple…
In the Goth Loli chapter, there is the same meaning. Each one imagine a cliché love story, including some fairy tale: Little Red Rinding Hood, a typical dramatically romantic movie-like story, the beauty in the sleepy forest, a mythological, legend-like story, with a cold-hearted tyrant, an alternate version of the prince…
All these hints are used in a humorous and ironical way towards the characters and the readers: once again, the author is playing with appearance and reality, here by gently mocking the readers’ expectations and the characters’ hopes.

- in the general structure and meaning of the manga : Sunako’s evolution is illustrated by a little fairy tale, the dark girl being successively another Little Red Riding Hood, Cinderella (the charming prince is a skeleton) and Snow White. (I don’t know which Japanese tale the “jade tablets” refer to…)
In fact, Sunako’s path is in some way a fairy tale, with the same signification: how someone young learns and grows up with the help of some allies… It’s the tale of an initiation to the world.




For me, the dark world is also the world of the «honest» beings. The skeletons and anatomic dolls show openly themselves in their true shapes. They are hidden in the dark world but - or because - they don't lie about what they are. So, in the opposite, the dazzling world is also the world of fake. I was thinking and thinking again about the first love of Sunako. She was truly in love with that guy. She certainly thought he had many qualities, but the way he rejected her was horrible. Sunako never stated the guy was bad : she accepted her ugliness as a truth. It's Kyouhei who pointed it : «That guy is the ugly one» (c05). But I can't help thinking that her obsession of anatomic dolls as to do with the real nature of this guy that she couldn't detect because she was blind by her feelings for him. It's like the real feelings could appear with the dissected organs. (You know the French expression : «mettre son coeur à nu» - literally : «to denude one's heart») So, the fact that she has linked sometimes Kyouhei to this dark world could be significant : in spite of his dazzling nature, this guy can be trusted. He is not fake...

Yes, I like your point of view, Kyohei deserving to belong to the darkness because he’s not fake! We can also think that keeping his corpse is a way to possess him for her, at the same time…
Darkness as a symbol of truth is definitely a good idea… but I keep thinking there are many possible degrees for interpreting the complex concept darkness certainly is… When you think about what happened after Kyohei’s departure, the dilemma in Sunako between guilt and relief/indulgence towards herself for what she said is represented by Hiroshi and Josephine. The two dolls embody two parts of her, Hiroshi the will to stay forever and passively in her beloved night, whereas Josephine, feminine, married, is the temptation, the pull towards the creature of light, which she has ignored in rejecting him and letting him go away. Thus the truth in a single mind can be multifaceted…

Sorry for the mistakes! I hope this makes some sense…

And, a bit too early: have a merry Christmas (in a couple of days)!

[HMR1]

Whaaaaa... Currently, I love you !!!
Once again you brought a lot of interesting ideas... What you said about fairy tales was great... It made me think a lot ! :woot:
I'll start first by what you said concerning Kyouhei and Sunako...
I like your analysis of Kyouhei's character... So, I'll only make a few remarks, like side notes.
But did you notice that in every single of those occurrences, he seems in fact to react to little displays of affection? After the school festival, he starts kissing the guys in the cheek, before kissing Sunako. In the club, the look in his eyes (as always, the more revealing part in Kyohei’s attitude), [...] he’s conscious that Sunako became angry because he has been beaten (in order to save her)…
Yes, I agree. And the eyes of Kyouhei are really beautiful and expressive (I love his surprised look in the c01 when the flour has fallen in Sunako's face)... as his smile... He doesn't smile so often. And it's always connected to Sunako.
[...] I think that that shows a very peculiar side you pointed in Kyohei’s personality: the lake of love/ tenderness in his life. Kyohei knows (or rather thinks) that he is not truly loved by anyone. [...] he systematically points that fangirls act the same way towards him: it’s a crush, not a real love, meant to last.
This last idea is pretty interesting... cause it would be another common vision between Sunako and Kyouhei. Or nearly one... Sunako points that love is an illusion when Kyouhei talks about the illusion of his fangirls to love him...
The fact is that minus in the c87, Kyouhei doesn't consider love for himself. The matter appears about the guys' relationships and then he seems «carefree». He's teasing them : he puts spokes in Noi's wheel (c09-c89), he makes fun of Takenaga ( c51 : «Congratulations. Fufufu. She is mine. Fufufu.»), of Yuki (c93). But as Takenaga and Yuki, he warns Ranmaru : «Someday, he'll go straight to hell» «Are you stupid » «He really is an idiot, ain't he ?» (c94)

Just passing by... connected with the characters' «tutti frutti». It's more a joke than an idea...
From love's point of view, in appearance, Takenaga and Yuki are the «good guys» : they truly love even if they are shy/childish and insecure. Kyouhei and Ranmaru are the «bad guys», the real lady killers. Kyouhei because he won't give his heart to any girl, and Ranmaru because he gives his body to everyone ! As in appearance, Sunako is the «bad girl», cause «love is an illusion», and Noi is the «good girl», a believer in the «power of love». (just couldn't help to write this while I was thinking to the smoking and infuriated bombs Cireus will drop reading it... Fufufufu...) Sorry... (But I can't say I won't do it again ! MwAHAwHAwhAHAHA !!! :lol:)

Let's back to Kyouhei...
Is he knowingly ready himself to kiss her then? Or are those incidents just some ‘silent staring moments’ which may usually occur between two people attracted to each other?
When he finally really kisses her, he is moved by her words about his true self, spoken when she takes care of him, when she tries to be gentle with him… Another hint of her concern, even knowing his real self…
It's hard to say... The fact is as the scenes remain «unfinished», fangirls can imagine what they want to believe, neee ? The mangaka plays a lot with this feeling of «unfinished» and «insatisfied», not only for teasing (I'll come back to this idea later).

Sure, in those moments, we read «attraction», and we're expecting more... as the guys in the c59 when they interrupted Sunako and Kyouhei while they were in the garden («sorry... continue»), and perhaps as Kyouhei himself (his sigh «what a pain» in the c44 can have many meanings...). And we can expect more because it already happened : he kissed her without hesitation in the c04 (the circumstances were special but he did), and he was ready to do so in the beginning of the c36, after he confessed he was considering her as a woman («Giving up of being a woman. the only one who thinks that is you»). And in some way, the c74 is the mirror of c35-c36 : in both chapters, they were forced to be together to become a «couple», and in both, one shows concern about the other's thoughts/ feelings.
I can’t help wondering if he isn’t also, between the lines, insecure about himself. He is in some way in the same case than Sunako, he’s a loner, but, instead of choosing a secure imaginary world like darkness, he’s become harsh and arrogant and overly shows a confidence I’m not so sure he deeply has. [...] Both of them need to learn how to trust the others and their own capacities. The same path… (Overanalyzing again? Errr…)
I agree with all what you said !! And I don't think you're overanalyzing... ;)
Kyouhei seems cold/ indifferent. When he says «I don't care», it's like he's meaning «Do as you want, I'm not concerned, I won't be hurt».
But at the same time, it's really significant of his feelings. I connect it with what he said to Sunako in c75 : «Just erase my existence». It's a strong sentence. And he already felt that way when he left his house. Didn't his mother ask him :«Can you disappear from my life»? (c38), and when he return, didn't he reply «I will never show my face again here». And because his existence is just a bother to others, and no one will love him, I guess this cold attitude is also the way he preventily suppresses his will and his possible hopes. He pretends to not intrude in other lifes and then to not be rejected again.
(I know that's giving too much importance to a detail; but I find interesting that in c41 when Ranmaru imitates his behavior to make the matchmeeting with Tamao fail, Kyouhei wonders : «Is that really me ?»)
So, I also think he has the same way than Sunako to go.
That’s why it would be only normal for him not to believe that Sunako’s disturbed behaviour could be connected to a stronger feeling. [...] Only afterwards, on a second thought he adds that he isn’t interested in love predictions. Quite revealing, ne?
So if I resume the idea : at the present, they are both disturbed, wondering what's happening to them... Each one has a personal matter with the other but can't say what is it and doesn't suspect what's the reason of the other's behavior.
I still think that Kyouhei is ahead in his questions : he has already considered his state in a love's equation (partially resolved by his eager for shrimps... lol) when Sunako just settled her feelings by the negative and not the affirmative form : «She doesn't hate him» (c75) and she didn't call into question her idea that «love is an illusion» (c76). Plus she's wondering how she could have given the illusion of love to someone (c96).

Now, about Sunako and her dark world.
Darkness as a symbol of truth is definitely a good idea… but I keep thinking there are many possible degrees for interpreting the complex concept darkness certainly is… When you think about what happened after Kyohei’s departure, the dilemma in Sunako between guilt and relief/indulgence towards herself for what she said is represented by Hiroshi and Josephine. The two dolls embody two parts of her, Hiroshi the will to stay forever and passively in her beloved night, whereas Josephine, feminine, married, is the temptation, the pull towards the creature of light, which she has ignored in rejecting him and letting him go away. Thus the truth in a single mind can be multifaceted…
Yep, yep, I totally second you in that. About Josephine, I'll connect it with what Ookamish said once.
I think she was so comfortable putting Josephine into a romantic relationship because her anatomical models are the quintessence of 'darkness.' Therefore, they are not dazzling and they find love even though they lack beauty. I think that gives her a sense of security. Something like, she can be loved even though she is ugly. Of course these actions are subconsciencely done. Its sort of like a way she projects her hopes for salvation from the darkness onto her dolls kinda thing
Those two dolls symbolize two different moments of her life.
Hiroshi is her «best friend», «very special», « left behind the school», broken (the other parts were already thrown) because they didn't «want it anymore». Sunako considers that they had the same experience : she was rejected by the guy she loved and was left with her broken heart by her friends who started to fear her. And it's why Hiroshi «understands her feelings more than the radiant creatures» (c44). Concerning Josephine, she is also «special» : Sunako got John for her and organized their marriage while living in the mansion. So, love isn't always an illusion... She considers Josephine's love as true... And it's interesting because it's the only happy ending in the dark world... I'll develop that further...
And as you say, it's the confrontation of two part of her : the old Sunako after being rejected, and the new Sunako since she's living with Kyouhei.

Now, let's talk about the fairy tale !!!
I won't quote all you said because I'll repeat everything... but the idea kept in my head all night and day. So, a BIG BIG thank you ! :bow:
I agree with you. The manga works like a fairy tale in many points. As I don't know nothing about Japanese tales, I'm sorry to just develop a western point of view.

We can make the comparison :
1) about the characters. As you said, we've got our godmother, Auntie, and our princes/princesses.
About that, I couldn't help thinking that in the manga our Snow White was Kyouhei : he is the most beautiful creature on Earth, which disturbed her mother who wanted him to disappear (and is here the figure of the cruel mother...) So, he run away. And to solve the problem, Sunako wanted to get rid of all the mirrors...
We can also consider their status. The fairy tales deal with the gap of status like in Cinderella. It's interesting that 3 of the characters are rich and can be considered as princes/ princesses : Tamao and Takenaga in a traditional way of life, Ranmaru in a modern one. In comparison, Kyouhei, Yuki and Noi are poor commoners.
What about Sunako ? Her status is unclear : her aunt is more than rich but what about her own parents ?

2) about the plot. In the fairy tales, the hero/heroin is a child-teenager who is becoming an adult. For that, he/she has to go through a lot of ordeals to build his own identity and at last marry the one he/she loves, have a lot of children and be happy forever – moment when he/she will achieve stability. We can consider that if not love, at least stability is the aim of all of our characters.

3) about the time and the beginning. As in the fairy tales, time is undefined. And a lot of fairy tales begin by a separation. Here Sunako and the 4 guys were part from their family, and it's how they all arrived in the mansion, where the tale starts.

4) about the scenery : the forest, the castle/palace are typical places of fairy tales.
A lot of chapters happen in the forest (c24, c33, c37, c65, c78) and some can be considered as ordeals' chapters like in the fairy tales. The mansion is a palace. And the castle appears in the diamond's and prince's chapters. But the castle is not only the place of the timeless happiness, it is often a bad place where the hero/heroin is imprisoned. Which comforts me in my vision of our prince who isn't really fair, is he ? (c80, c96)

5) with the appearance of magic objects : the ring (c04) and the diamond (c52)

6) by the ordeals. In the fairy tales, the hero/heroin has to suffer humiliations, threats, go through temptations, death (and certainly, Sunako and Kyouhei spend their time escaping from dangerous situations...) Plus, the ugliness can also be an obstacle to the hero's happiness like in Beauty and the Beast.

But, the manga has only an appearance of fairy tale.
The mangaka is always playing with our fangirls' dreams who read too many fairy tales. For example, the housework is a daily humiliation imposed on Cinderella : here it's the shelter of Sunako. Other example, about the love at first sight between the prince and the princess. That isn't so simple. In the case of Sunako and Kyouhei, it seems to be a fairy tale : we have the prince that saves the princess, and vice-versa. But the prince didn't confess, and the princess isn't really in love. There is no happy ending. The most of time, the tale ends in a wave of blood... Ah, ah, ah...

(We can nuance with the other pairings : concerning Ranmaru and Tamao, the princess confessed and the prince hesitates. Between Yuki and Mashiko, it's a mutual love but they are part. And concerning Takenaga and Noi, the princess confessed and the prince finally recognized his love.
So, we have different levels... And once again the story remains unfinished...)

Plus, the Loli Sisters' chapter where the reference to fairy tales is obvious is interesting : Sunako doesn't help and breaks their dreams. What was the aim of this chapter ? In spite of appearances, there, the fangirls as you pointed doesn't feel a true love, but a selfish and possessive desire, and they use spells despising the feelings of the person they say to love. So, the Loli sisters are the bad characters... (as in the c19 where they are jealous of Sunako and want to get rid of her).
If not, what is lacking in the comparison with the fairy tales, is the evil : no witch, no ogre etc... and the dark beings can't be classified in this category.

Because if the manga works like a fairy tale, it works also like a fantastic tale.
Here, I lack of English vocabulary. So, I'll try to explain myself the best I can.
In French, among fantasy's style, we distinguish the marvellous (the fairy tales belong to that style) and the fantastic (for example the works of Oscar Wilde or Edgar Alan Poe are fantastic stories).

And we can consider that all the dark beings and world belong to a fantastic tale.
1) Ghosts, vampires are typical characters of this style.
2) The plot : the end is the most of time tragic. There isn't any stability : the only solution for the hero is often the death or madness. Our dark beings are all wandering aimless and sad.
3) The hero has ambivalent feelings dealing with repulsion and attirance. Here I can't help thinking to the Elizabeth of c04 and the vampire girl. Elizabeth was killed by the most beautiful piece of his lovers' collection, and the vampire girl fell for a human, but couldn't impose her way of life to him. (in both cases, the guys looked like Kyouhei).

One question is : to which kind of tale the character of Sunako belongs ? It's hard to say, nee ?
From this point of view, the little chapter "Little Red Riding Sunako" is interesting because it borrows all the elements of fairy tales but to deform them like in a fantastic story... The heroin isn't happy at all... She is suffering from the confrontation with the princes. It's hell for her... «She drowned in her nosebleed», a hard path to go against her will...

And at the present, I think that fairy tale and fantastic tale make a whole.
Both of those stories illustrate different levels of time and feelings.
In the fairy tale, we are before the timeless happiness. This young characters are looking for themselves, fearing what is changing and discovering love.
In the fantastic tale, we are after the supposed «happy end». Dark beings experienced love and are regretting what they lost. They try to regain it among the human beings.
The link between the two tales is Sunako.
The dark beings find redemption/ peace when they meet Sunako (but she doesn't act expressly in this way) : the ghost of hospital (c30), the vampire (c91-c92).
However that may be, what is missing for all type of beings is the "happy end". Their story remain unfinished. And at the present, the only example of timeless happiness, and then of perfection/completeness is Josephine with John - and only thanks to Sunako...

Well, it's pretty late for me... So, I hope it will make sense... :confused:

[chibi-s]

For me, the dark world is also the world of the «honest» beings. The skeletons and anatomic dolls show openly themselves in their true shapes. They are hidden in the dark world but - or because - they don't lie about what they are. So, in the opposite, the dazzling world is also the world of fake.I think the anatomical dolls are silent and therefore unable to hurt her.

Anyhoo .. you guys are amazing with your theses on perfect girl. I particularly like the idea that the story is not getting stale but deliberately cycling through 7 recurring stories.

I can't add anything to this erudite conversation other than to express my appreciation. :)

I've just been to the local Manga shop in Munich to pick up Totoro for a christmas present and they had Perfect Girl vol 7 in German. Its funny, its called "Perfect Girl" (the english words) even though its called Wallflower in the English editions. I didn't buy it by the way, but I did get vol 1 in French when we were in Paris, for practicing my French. I'm not sure that it will help though because I know the story so well I just open it, see the pictures and snort! :)

My six year old daughter really likes PG too. (There are some chapters I don't read to her, obviously). Its very educational. She's all for planting a sakura tree in the garden now and having a viewing party in Spring. :lol:


EDIT: 2nd post merged with the previous one. You need to edit your post if you want to add something and you are the last person to post. MouF

[HMR1]

Feel free to add all your comments. You're more than welcome !
PGE is a whole : I do love the manga, and each time I talk about here, I discover new aspects... ;)

I think the anatomical dolls are silent and therefore unable to hurt her.

I agree with the idea that her dolls don't hurt her.
But I'll say that they have become silent... Because they had sometimes an opinion - for example, when Sunako remembered the kiss in the c12, and as edenwest reminded, when Kyouhei left the mansion. Their opinions seem to represent a guideline for Sunako, - a sort of voice of conscience...

The question is : have they really become silent (oh my, I'm really writing this... :lol:), or Sunako didn't have a strong case of conscience that needed their advice and that the mangaka would have shown us ?

About learning French with PGE... Well... It's possible... They adapted the expressions - but they aren't really current...
I can't imagine any teenager insulting a girl today by telling her that "elle est un thon" (literally : "she is a tuna", to say that "she is ugly" in a vulgar/ disrespectful way)... Those kind of expressions are quickly old-fashioned...
*sigh* I think that in the translation they lost some of the PGE mood, - at least in the first volumes. I can't help thinking sometimes that it rings false/fake...
I just bought the v08, and for once, really enjoyed it... But I do prefer to read the English translation.

(NB : A sakura tree ? If she' won't dig under to find you know what... Why not ? :lol:)

[Dante]

Mmmm in all the chapter I have translated, I have never encountered Sunako being called a tuna, ugly yes, but she has not in a long time... I wonder why ;)

[chibi-s]

About learning French with PGE... Well... It's possible... They adapted the expressions - but they aren't really current...
I can't imagine any teenager insulting a girl today by telling her that "elle est un thon" (literally : "she is a tuna", to say that "she is ugly" in a vulgar/ disrespectful way)... Those kind of expressions are quickly old-fashioned...
*sigh* I think that in the translation they lost some of the PGE mood, - at least in the first volumes. I can't help thinking sometimes that it rings false/fake...
I just bought the v08, and for once, really enjoyed it... But I do prefer to read the English translation.



That's very interesting about the difference in the translation. But for a dumby like me its a case of translating french into english so laboriously that the nuances of the japanese/french translation will just be lost in the noise. :) I'll try not to call anyone a "thon" in case they laugh at my old fashioned ways. :lol:
Just as well you told me actually because that statement is right at the front of the story and really sticks in my mind so I might have used it and thought I was being clever. :)

Mmmm in all the chapter I have translated, I have never encountered Sunako being called a tuna, ugly yes, but she has not in a long time... I wonder why


So as a matter of esoteric interest, when the nasty boy calls her ugly in Japanese does he use a slang simile or expression or is it just "ugly" ? If the former that might be why they translated it to "un thon".

[Dante]

They use the slang word for 'ugly' slang is used a lot in PGE, remember they are teens, Kyouhei is the worst of the all. I see why its difficult to tl into other languages, unfortunatelly their expressions are not translatable. They are however equivalents, you just gotta know them :)

[HMR1]

I guess it's a very difficult work...
"Thon" was just an example. The most disturbing for me is that sometimes the translation chose to change the topic (I think to fit better with French culture), but then the coherence of PGE's universe is a bit lost.
By the past, I also read the Spanish translations and I didn't get this feeling. Or maybe, it was because my Spanish wasn't that good, and that I'm particularly sensitive in French, and moreover about PGE.

I'm happy that PGE is published in French, and I wish this feeling will disappear...
And currently, Dante I love you !!! :<3:

Just to end with the "thon" thing, the French sub version of the anime didn't choose a slang word, but "laide" which simply means "ugly" (I think I would have said "moche" or "mocheté"?).
Somehow, "laide" is better because the opposition with the beautiful guys is clear.
And when the topic comes back, it fits better : it's hard to see Sunako say about herself or the other guys say that she is a "thon". It's really insulting for a girl (not to mention, that it suggests also a bit to be fat, as "boudin" or "tas" - other vulgar expressions.)

I mean slang doesn't necessarily imply insults... So, I was wondering...

In this first scene, the guy's rejection is violent, but does the word imply an insult ?

[edenwest]

Thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnks a lot for the two new chapters! Thanks! Thanks! Thanks! Thanks! Thanks! That was a very nice Christmas gift!!!
:yay:

Just some random thoughts about chapter 97:
-Kyohei’s courageous behavior versus the prince’s one (“I hated to agree with Kyohei so I kept quiet” and, of course, the coward side of him in chapter 80)

- he is the only one to make Sunako snap out of her trance : “open your eyes” he says and, in place of the cat-like eyes, we can see hers… although his effect don’t last long : she mews when everybody expect her to speak… another tricky trick!

- Sunako is definitely sexier ! That’s once again a way to make us doubt after the futon episode… she’s half naked because the cat doesn’t care about nudity, so we could wonder about her intimate moment with Kyohei the previous night…

- … if Sunako’s feeling hadn’t appear in between lines in her cat-like reactions… she’s very friendly and affectionate with everyone in the gang, but hostile towards the prince (she scratches him first and only wants to kill him after he has kept insisting)… while she’s really aggressive towards Kyohei (her expression is very Sunako-like in her worst moments). So we can suppose the cat/Sunako feels he’s the more dangerous…

- Sunako fishing reminds of the trip on Hokkaido (ok, very random thought…)

- the ending is quite nice ! Old (dark, chibi and all!) Sunako comes back at the very end but it isn’t as irritating as in the vampire chapter (“please take me with you!”, while everybody was sure that she was crying because of Elisabeth story). Here, she’s just macabre, but that doesn’t really make us doubt about her happiness for the cat or about their final quite sweet moment… This story needs definitely to be compared with the vampire chapters!!!

About chapter 98:

That chapter is calmer! Like the parenthesis about Ranmaru, it fills the gap after a particularly emotional chapter… A door seems to open in Auntie’s life, with new questions… Is it the beginning of a new relationship? This time, her private life seems turn toward the future, unlike in the chapter with Darling or in her previous repetitive and failed attempts (even thought she wanted to marry her boyfriends, they hadn’t a face for us).
And, with these two chapters we have the feeling they have really become a family… seeing them act like teenagers was fun!



Now, about what HMR1 said earlier...

This last idea is pretty interesting... cause it would be another common vision between Sunako and Kyouhei. Or nearly one... Sunako points that love is an illusion when Kyouhei talks about the illusion of his fangirls to love him...
We know her “illusion of love” is connected to what Kyohei told her after the real kiss… It’s indeed interesting that she uses these worlds for speaking about something out of this particular episode… like with Auntie or with the prince (“I haven’t given the prince the illusion of love”). Kyohei’s worlds have defined her vision of relationships. He’s her reference…


Those two dolls symbolize two different moments of her life.
Hiroshi is her «best friend», «very special», « left behind the school», broken (the other parts were already thrown) because they didn't «want it anymore». Sunako considers that they had the same experience : she was rejected by the guy she loved and was left with her broken heart by her friends who started to fear her. And it's why Hiroshi «understands her feelings more than the radiant creatures» (c44). Concerning Josephine, she is also «special» : Sunako got John for her and organized their marriage while living in the mansion. So, love isn't always an illusion... She considers Josephine's love as true... And it's interesting because it's the only happy ending in the dark world... I'll develop that further...
And as you say, it's the confrontation of two part of her : the old Sunako after being rejected, and the new Sunako since she's living with Kyouhei.


By the way, Kyohei and Josephine seem somewhat related: in the school cultural event, it caught my eyes that Kyohei was wearing an outfit that reminded a little of Josephine’s usual one… a feather scarf and, later, a western hat. And he played the part of a scary (and sexy…) mannequin. I wondered if it was only a kind of cliché of ‘elegance and seduction’ comically associated to a female skeleton and twisted in a ironical, subtle way when applied to the hottest of our guys… or, after reading the others chapters, that is was a very discreet way for the magaka to connect Sunako’s epitome of true reciprocated love (Josephine) and Kyohei, like showing what Sunako could be hoping to receive from him.


I LOVE your analysis of the fairy tale aspect!!! I honestly believe it’s one of the very best things I’ve ever read about PGE!!!

1) about the characters. As you said, we've got our godmother, Auntie, and our princes/princesses.
About that, I couldn't help thinking that in the manga our Snow White was Kyouhei : he is the most beautiful creature on Earth, which disturbed her mother who wanted him to disappear (and is here the figure of the cruel mother...) So, he run away. And to solve the problem, Sunako wanted to get rid of all the mirrors...


Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh! Yeahhhhhh! And the inversion when he woke Sunako up with a kiss!!!
Another hint: Yuki when arriving in the mansion was somewhat treated like a poor Cinderella by Ranmaru and Takenaga, playing the part of two (not so evil) stepsisters… Still, things don’t take that direction for a long time.


We can also consider their status. The fairy tales deal with the gap of status like in Cinderella. It's interesting that 3 of the characters are rich and can be considered as princes/ princesses : Tamao and Takenaga in a traditional way of life, Ranmaru in a modern one. In comparison, Kyouhei, Yuki and Noi are poor commoners.
What about Sunako ? Her status is unclear : her aunt is more than rich but what about her own parents ?


Sunako’s status isn’t clearly stated because she is “out of the world”, she doesn’t belong in the beginning to a world defined by human nor social interactions…

2) about the plot. In the fairy tales, the hero/heroin is a child-teenager who is becoming an adult. For that, he/she has to go through a lot of ordeals to build his own identity and at last marry the one he/she loves, have a lot of children and be happy forever – moment when he/she will achieve stability. We can consider that if not love, at least stability is the aim of all of our characters.

I totally agree! The characters are aiming for stability and identity! Keeping away from their family, they mature slowly and overcome their parents influence: Takenaga is less old-fashioned and polite, Yuki wants to change, Ranmaru thinks about his play-boy life (although he doesn’t change yet, and his family keeps interfering)…

And I want to share here something that kept in my mind, although I’m not sure at all about it… Aren’t there a few hints of Oedipus’ complex in the characters’ behaviour? Kyohei choose, not clearly but still, a girl who doesn’t want to live with him, like his mother. Ranmaru has a relationship with his father based, in his mind, on challenge in love. And the other guys thought, when seeing his beautiful mother, that they understood then his attraction towards older women… For Takenaga and Sunako, there doesn’t seem to be any similar feelings; nevertheless, their parents, Sunako’s mother and Takenaga’s father also seem full of seduction for the other teenagers… I noted this here because escaping from Oedipal feelings is a regular topic in fairy tales (Donkey Skin for the more obvious example). (Sorry if I overanalyse… I’ve read Bruno Bettelheim’s famous book a few years ago and I’m afraid it has influence my vision of fairy tales ever since…)


4) about the scenery : the forest, the castle/palace are typical places of fairy tales.
A lot of chapters happen in the forest (c24, c33, c37, c65, c78) and some can be considered as ordeals' chapters like in the fairy tales. The mansion is a palace. And the castle appears in the diamond's and prince's chapters. But the castle is not only the place of the timeless happiness, it is often a bad place where the hero/heroin is imprisoned. Which comforts me in my vision of our prince who isn't really fair, is he ? (c80, c96)


The Mansion is a palace, indeed, but it’s at the same time a marvellous place. Marvellous here in a fairy tale meaning: it has a kind of magic. Characters can cross the line between dream and reality (when cosplaying, Kyohei was wearing horns like a satyr, Yuki huge ears like an elf…) Everything can happen here: new rooms appear out of nowhere (an haunted cellar, a swimming-pool), or old ones can be transformed (Sunako has darken her room, the guys tried to lighten it, they can change a room when using the fondue set or the kotatsu, or the turn whole house into an gothic movie-like scenery…
But, like in tales, everything remain in stand-by: they need to go outside of this protecting house, where things stay frozen and out of time (ghosts remains inside, Darling and the evil ghost), they need to leave the great sanctuary that the mansion is for making progress and realize what they feel and what they are. The kiss in the cellar is meant for breaking a spell, in the infirmary, it’s real. Sunako and Kyohei are seen truly living together when doing so outside.
When Sunako thinks they can’t return to the mansion anymore (after living together or when helping Takenaga), they have for the first time the feeling to be a family, to belong to the same household. When keeping out of the mansion comes the time of taking decisions…


6) by the ordeals. In the fairy tales, the hero/heroin has to suffer humiliations, threats, go through temptations, death (and certainly, Sunako and Kyouhei spend their time escaping from dangerous situations...) Plus, the ugliness can also be an obstacle to the hero's happiness like in Beauty and the Beast.


That’s right!!! Good point! And Kyohei and Sunako can truly be seen (by strangers) as a new version of Beauty and the Beast!...
…Like Ranmaru and Tamao could incarnate Sleeping Beauty by the way… Yuki was until recently waiting for his girlfriend who went far far away, like in some other tales… What for Takenaga and Noi then?

But, the manga has only an appearance of fairy tale.
The mangaka is always playing with our fangirls' dreams who read too many fairy tales. For example, the housework is a daily humiliation imposed on Cinderella : here it's the shelter of Sunako. Other example, about the love at first sight between the prince and the princess. That isn't so simple. In the case of Sunako and Kyouhei, it seems to be a fairy tale : we have the prince that saves the princess, and vice-versa. But the prince didn't confess, and the princess isn't really in love. There is no happy ending. The most of time, the tale ends in a wave of blood... Ah, ah, ah...

Exactly! Traditional interpretations never completely applied in PGE! There is systematically a part of trick, an unexpected and ironic twist!!!


Plus, the Loli Sisters' chapter where the reference to fairy tales is obvious is interesting : Sunako doesn't help and breaks their dreams. What was the aim of this chapter ? In spite of appearances, there, the fangirls as you pointed doesn't feel a true love, but a selfish and possessive desire, and they use spells despising the feelings of the person they say to love. So, the Loli sisters are the bad characters... (as in the c19 where they are jealous of Sunako and want to get rid of her).
If not, what is lacking in the comparison with the fairy tales, is the evil : no witch, no ogre etc... and the dark beings can't be classified in this category.


And the devilish fiance in chapter 29? Most seriously, I think the characters, protagonists and no, have to face their own demons, the selfish and asocial part in them (like the fangirls, not really evil, but acting badly...)
The Goth Loli sisters have a negative attitude too towards their so-called beloved one… But I think they deeply want to be saved (from their lives?) by someone… thus the fairy tales/ dramatic stories in their fantasies… Little Red Riding Hood, girl loving a dying man, princess, sacrificed girl marrying a tyran, they all are waiting for help. Sunako appears therefore as an antique/fantasist knight, a doctor, a hunter, a prince/guard… Help and rescue are one of the most recurrent fairy-tale-istic aspect of the whole manga.




And at the present, I think that fairy tale and fantastic tale make a whole.
Both of those stories illustrate different levels of time and feelings.
In the fairy tale, we are before the timeless happiness. This young characters are looking for themselves, fearing what is changing and discovering love.
In the fantastic tale, we are after the supposed «happy end». Dark beings experienced love and are regretting what they lost. They try to regain it among the human beings.
The link between the two tales is Sunako.
The dark beings find redemption/ peace when they meet Sunako (but she doesn't act expressly in this way) : the ghost of hospital (c30), the vampire (c91-c92).
However that may be, what is missing for all type of beings is the "happy end". Their story remain unfinished. And at the present, the only example of timeless happiness, and then of perfection/completeness is Josephine with John - and only thanks to Sunako...

I like your presentation of fantastic story here, particularly the tragic part…
But did these dark stories remain unfinished? They achieve to understand the beloved one’s feelings (the gost can give his letter to the nurse, she acknowledges his love for her; the vampire discovers, by reading another letter, from Elizabeth, that she did love him until the end). Tragic deaths can end their story, but love remains, with the memories, the caring and still present ghosts (in the hospital, Darling)… The timeless happiness here can only be represented by un-alive dolls, skeletons.
Their significance could be for Sunako and Kyohei to take their chance, to live their love, before death time comes and they’ll be left with unanswered questions about the other real feelings… A kind of gothic carpe diem.



Learning French by reading PGE, why not? The more important part in reading is probably to give the feeling of a language and to break the artificial impression we can have when learning a foreign language… Informal books like manga, comics or so can help to become more familiar with the way of speaking! (And I still use the tuna/”thon” expression, although it’s a little old fashioned… but I would also prefer “mocheté” for Sunako, the world fits the manga!)
By the way, translation notes are always interesting! Like having a glimpse of what's happening behind the scene! Thanks for sharing!

[HMR1]

Whaaaaaaaa... Soooo interesting thoughts !!!
It took me some time to organize the «stormy» ideas they inspired to me !

I guess it doesn't matter if I begin by the «tale» aspect to end by the new chapters ? ;)
I'll start by the characters and to be more clear about what I want to say, I'm joining some elements you told.

Sunako’s status isn’t clearly stated because she is “out of the world”, she doesn’t belong in the beginning to a world defined by human nor social interactions… [...]
And the inversion when he woke Sunako up with a kiss!!![...]
By the way, Kyohei and Josephine seem somewhat related [...] or, after reading the others chapters, that is was a very discreet way for the mangaka to connect Sunako’s epitome of true reciprocated love (Josephine) and Kyohei, like showing what Sunako could be hoping to receive from him.
I agree that the status of Sunako isn't clear because she doesn't seem to belong to the same world : a human body with a dark aura. In the first chapters, at school she is considered as a ghost, a spirit which frigthens the students. But it's an appearance... She likes the dark things but she is also the «victim»... She is sensitive to magic and dark beings, so she is easily possessed (by Elizabeth, by the cat), and changes of personality (when she ate the magic mushrooms, or when she wore the diamond).

She isn't the only one sensitive to magic and dark beings : so is Kyouhei. He can see ghosts and he was possessed by Ranmaru's behavior... :lol: He seems to be able to overcome magic : each time she is possessed, he can tame her and make the spell break.

It can't be a coincidence, neee? Here I'll talk about the inversion you mentionned (that was well pointed!!!).
A lot of allusions suggest that Kyouhei is our princess : I'll add two. In the c13, A Banquet to the Beautiful, he is the beautiful dead (or the Sleeping Beauty ?) carried. He is the one who is rapted in the c37. He is the object of desire that uses to be the princess.

And first of all, he is the object of desire and repulsion of Sunako who presents the characteristics of a fantastic tale's hero. Typically, she is at the same time fascinated and frightened by Kyouhei. He appears to her as the best creation of God : he is her temptation.
And Kyouhei presents the characteristics of the devil in the fantastic tales - devil who is often embodied by a girl (this week-end, I was reading again Le Diable Amoureux by Cazotte). An irresistible figure : «hair like silk», «skin like porcelain», «eyes that shine like obsidian» «a body far more beautiful than the average boy» «perfectly balanced muscles», «a low sweet voice» (c69). But behind this captivating figure, there is a devil who sometimes shows his true nature (when he tricks her or by his devilish grin like in the c58). And even if he will just cause her loss, she can't help saving him.
Of course, this fantastic illustration fits the Sunako's thoughts. And the way Kyouhei talks doesn't match with the angelic devil's figure...

In other hand, I like your idea about the association Kyouhei/Josephine... I do believe that this mangaka is able to do that...

About the Oedipus' complex,
And I want to share here something that kept in my mind, although I’m not sure at all about it… Aren’t there a few hints of Oedipus’ complex in the characters’ behaviour? Kyohei choose, not clearly but still, a girl who doesn’t want to live with him, like his mother. Ranmaru has a relationship with his father based, in his mind, on challenge in love. And the other guys thought, when seeing his beautiful mother, that they understood then his attraction towards older women… For Takenaga and Sunako, there doesn’t seem to be any similar feelings; nevertheless, their parents, Sunako’s mother and Takenaga’s father also seem full of seduction for the other teenagers… I noted this here because escaping from Oedipal feelings is a regular topic in fairy tales (Donkey Skin for the more obvious example). (Sorry if I overanalyse… I’ve read Bruno Bettelheim’s famous book a few years ago and I’m afraid it has influence my vision of fairy tales ever since…)
I guess you're right even if I'm not able to formulate it clearly. We can consider that Sunako and the guys are overcoming their Oedipus' complex, or at least, emancipating from their parents. I'll add three examples.
Kyouhei came back to his house in the c38, but his mother hasn't change at all, so he can't be her love's object, and he has to leave definitely («I'll never show my face again») and look for another love.
Sunako was confronted to her father in the c21, A dark brown memory : she doesn't hate him now, but she also loves different things that he can't stand and that she was hidding from him but now she's able to tell him.
And the conclusion of this necessary evolution is put in the mouth of the «childish» Yuki in the c60. Once his parents left, he's crying : «I didn't want to cry in front of them while they were living. I have a lo of growing up to do...»

About Bruno Bettelheim's book, it's difficult to not think about the psychoanalysis/sexual meaning of Snow White, Cinderella, and Little Red Riding Hood that were used in the manga... As to not think about the nosebleed's meaning. Cynsny talked about once (http://forum.cireus-anime.com/showthread.php?p=42073#post42073).
By the way, in the manga, a lot of pics suggest sexual situations as you pointed about the c97 – allusions not concretised... I was about to add «yet» (excepted in Ranmaru's case). Our characters minus Sunako think and talk about.

About the mansion,
The Mansion is a palace, indeed, but it’s at the same time a marvellous place. [...]
But, like in tales, everything remain in stand-by: they need to go outside of this protecting house, where things stay frozen and out of time (ghosts remains inside, Darling and the evil ghost), they need to leave the great sanctuary that the mansion is for making progress and realize what they feel and what they are. The kiss in the cellar is meant for breaking a spell, in the infirmary, it’s real. Sunako and Kyohei are seen truly living together when doing so outside. [...] When keeping out of the mansion comes the time of taking decisions…
I agree about the marvellous palace and the protecting house. I'll just make a little nuance by saying that the mansion is the space where the characters are confronted to themselves and reach some consciousness and that outside is the space of action.

Nearly all the conflicts/ dangerous truthes are exposed in the mansion. Sunako considers her past (c59, Memory's Door and c62 Memory of Love) confronted to Kyouhei in the mansion, and then she decides to go the matchmeeting and to the class reunion. Same thing about the maths' exam in the c11 (confrontation Kyouhei/Sunako), or the way she hurt Kyouhei (confrontation Sunako/Takenaga in the c39) : then outside, she passes the exam and find a way to make Kyouhei come back.

It works also with other characters. For example, the girls' insecurity is exposed in the mansion when they are confronted to the guys in the c43, and then, they go the beauty saloon. Same thing with the feeling of inferiority of Yuki towards Kyouhei in the c37 (then, he tries to save him) or Ranmaru in the c55 (and he'll try to be a perfect host).

But it's interesting that for their "own main problem", the characters return to their home or similar place connected to their family : Kyouhei returns home in the c39, Takenaga in the c72, Ranmaru in the c78. Yuki is the exception at the present.

About the meaning of the whole tale,
Most seriously, I think the characters, protagonists and no, have to face their own demons [...]
The Goth Loli sisters have a negative attitude too towards their so-called beloved one… But I think they deeply want to be saved (from their lives?) by someone… [...] Help and rescue are one of the most recurrent fairy-tale-istic aspect of the whole manga.
Yes, yes, yes ! Well said !!! And I agree with the "saving" side of the manga...
Sunako and the guys are driven to rescue people from despair of love's failure/loss (Elizabeh in the c04, the ghost in the c30, Auntie in the c76, the vampire in the c91-c92, the cat in the c96-c97). They are also driven to expose the fake love (the lover of Ranmaru in c09-c10; the Loli sisters in the c19 and c73 ; the boyfriend of her childhood friend in the c24 ; the lover of Auntie in the c29) or to expose the others' fake reasons to not assume the way they are (the rapist in the c07, the child's parents in the c28, the Sunako's fan in the c45, the guy in the c90, ...)
But did these dark stories remain unfinished? They achieve to understand the beloved one’s feelings (the gost can give his letter to the nurse, she acknowledges his love for her; the vampire discovers, by reading another letter, from Elizabeth, that she did love him until the end). Tragic deaths can end their story, but love remains, with the memories, the caring and still present ghosts (in the hospital, Darling)… The timeless happiness here can only be represented by un-alive dolls, skeletons.
Their significance could be for Sunako and Kyohei to take their chance, to live their love, before death time comes and they’ll be left with unanswered questions about the other real feelings… A kind of gothic carpe diem.
I was thinking «unfinished» as «incomplete». If you consider it, the «timeless happiness» is a future for our characters, and something lost or unreached for the dark beings. Something they have bitter feelings about. Their meeting with Sunako drive them to clear their misunderstanding and to finally achieve peace. Yes, they learn that they were truly loved, but it's the past : they can cherish the memory of this love.
But there isn't any present, minus in the case of Josephine and John and lately, the cat's spirit (in the end, he meets again her mistress and leaves with her).
So, I second your conclusion about the timeless happiness and I do love your expression of «gothic carpe diem». I'm totally convinced of it !

I'll link it with what you said about Kyouhei and Sunako here :
We know her “illusion of love” is connected to what Kyohei told her after the real kiss… It’s indeed interesting that she uses these worlds for speaking about something out of this particular episode… like with Auntie or with the prince (“I haven’t given the prince the illusion of love”). Kyohei’s worlds have defined her vision of relationships. He’s her reference…
Well, we can consider that Sunako was the first preoccupied by love, but in a negative and denying form. In the manga, she is pretty busy to dismantle every hint of love to not be deceived by its illusion. I was thinking to the c46 : «This is a date? No, no it isn't possible» «We aren't a couple so how can we go on a date ?».
And in conclusion, Kyouhei replies to her : «Who cares if it is a date or not [...] We had fun, ins't that enough ?».
And the fact is that he often forgets what he was supposed/told to do as in the c66 or in the c95 because he's having fun with Sunako. He takes what comes to him, and doesn't think too much. Maybe because of his past, he is expecting nothing from Sunako or other people. It's a kind of carpe diem but in a weak form.

And in someway in the c75, his statement is similar : «World you say? Haven't we decided that they're the same... since we live together ?». Who cares about dark/ bright worlds, we're living together.
So, it was amazing to see him consider love in the c87 because for the first time, he wants to enunciate/ classify what he is feeling. It's unusual and bothering for him : «Just show me the damn answer». And as he isn't ready to assume the answer, he jumps to the shrimps' solution, and returns to his usual behavior. The way he's living now is better than nothing and better than rejection.

Considering the tale's motto you pointed, Kyouhei's behavior seems more positive than Sunako's one. But they're both still loosing precious time...

Now, a few «strewn» comments about the last chapters...
About the c97, there were so funny scenes (Sunako escaping with the fish in her mouth, or for once, Kyouhei not saving Sunako but the prince... :lol:) and that was a good resume of the manga, neee ? We can notice the return of nosebleed (Sunako didn't became immune against Kyouhei) and, at the same time there are some innovations about the end...-Kyohei’s courageous behavior versus the prince’s one (“I hated to agree with Kyohei so I kept quiet” and, of course, the coward side of him in chapter 80)

Yes, yes! and if we consider who is suited for Sunako, the reaction of the prince is interesting. He was totally powerless. He had entertained her about dark things, but in reality, he doesn't understand her. He only can think to the royal paranormal research team to deal with the problem : he can't do it by himself.
So we can suppose the cat/Sunako feels he’s the more dangerous…

Maybe the cat sensed that Kyouhei has some power over Sunako. But I'm really puzzled by the words of Kyouhei : «Is it a cat's nature to take over someone's body and to kill people». I understand it this way : it's you who is acting. Do you really want to kill both of us?
And may I answer that she woke up from her trance because she realized that she didn't really want it, just like after the c04?
the ending is quite nice ! Old (dark, chibi and all!) [...] Here, she’s just macabre, but that doesn’t really make us doubt about her happiness for the cat or about their final quite sweet moment… This story needs definitely to be compared with the vampire chapters!!!

Yes, there are innovations in this end of chapter.
Sunako is really and openly worried about the cat : she wants to believe that he met his mistress. It's one of Sunako's contradictions : she doesn't believe in love but she wishes the happiness of the cat, like she did for Auntie in the c76 («even if it's just an illusion, since Oba-chan is so serious, I'll assist in any way I can!!») or for the guy in the c90 («Aren't you just pretending that you can't see what is in front of you?» «Who is your radiant star?»).
Plus for the first time after this kind of incident, she is peacefully chatting with Kyouhei. If you except their fights, their dialogues are rare. And here they show a mutual understanding. Somehow it reminds me the atmosphere of the c70's end when they were living together.
And as I said earlier, this end is the first real happy end for a dark being : we can expect that the cat will live with his mistress forever.

The c98 was pretty funny too... Each single detail was so true : the fear of the guys when they see Sebastian, the dishevelled Sunako coming from her room, etc... My favourite quote at the present is definitely : "I'm a younger woman. I've confirmed it now!!" :lol: I agree with you when you say that they do behave like a family.

A door seems to open in Auntie’s life, with new questions… Is it the beginning of a new relationship?

About that, I don't know... To me, Auntie was really worried about Sebastian's health and that death could take another person she loves... But at the beginning, she could tell honestly her feelings.

If I dare to say it : "that's all for the moment!" ;)

[edenwest]

Thanks A LOT for your post, it was really deep!!! So many ideas, in fact that I couldn’t think about every of them… :happydance: I guess I’ll have to complete the next time (hopefully)! and I won’t systematically quote what you said (I would need to quote the whole thing…), so sooooooorry! ‘hope you won’t mind!:(

First of all, about Sunako and Kyohei’s frequent possessions:
Maybe Sunako’s status isn’t clear also because she voluntarily let the normal world. As for her ability to be possessed, I think that’s because she kind of lakes of something… she has already tore away a part of her personality, of her self…
Kyohei breaking the spell is a cliché in fantastic/romantic stories and tales… that’s quite ironic, I think…
Two arcs are visible here: Sunako being possessed/ suggested and, with a twisted parallelism, Kyohei, in similar situations… Compare the Pheromone Bomb (64) chapter with the one with the diamond and her consecutive nudism (52): each one is attracted towards the other (he’s liking her finger and protecting her/ she’s on top of him); they attract the opposite sex (wild animals, grannies/ boys at school, AV staff); they want to brutally force the other to return to normal (showing his naked body/ bumping his head)
At the same time, compare the chapter where Kyohei is a domestic man (77) with the mushroom one (27) : they are bothered by the other’s new behaviour and want once again him/her to be him/herself, either by refusing her transformation, either by competing with him. Their own role towards the other is questioned.
Always an arc (in two chapters for Sunako) and its almost exact inversion (two chapter in a chiasm, here, for Kyohei)…

It can't be a coincidence, neee? Here I'll talk about the inversion you mentionned (that was well pointed!!!).
A lot of allusions suggest that Kyouhei is our princess : I'll add two. In the c13, A Banquet to the Beautiful, he is the beautiful dead (or the Sleeping Beauty ?) carried. He is the one who is rapted in the c37. He is the object of desire that uses to be the princess.

And first of all, he is the object of desire and repulsion of Sunako who presents the characteristics of a fantastic tale's hero. Typically, she is at the same time fascinated and frightened by Kyouhei. He appears to her as the best creation of God : he is her temptation.
And Kyouhei presents the characteristics of the devil in the fantastic tales - devil who is often embodied by a girl (this week-end, I was reading again Le Diable Amoureux by Cazotte). An irresistible figure : «hair like silk», «skin like porcelain», «eyes that shine like obsidian» «a body far more beautiful than the average boy» «perfectly balanced muscles», «a low sweet voice» (c69). But behind this captivating figure, there is a devil who sometimes shows his true nature (when he tricks her or by his devilish grin like in the c58). And even if he will just cause her loss, she can't help saving him.
Of course, this fantastic illustration fits the Sunako's thoughts. And the way Kyouhei talks doesn't match with the angelic devil's figure...


That’s right! Very good point!!! But we see him mostly through her eyes, the beauty and the evil/selfish side… His deep words, his showing his real thoughts, that don’t totally match this “angelic devil’s figure”, are never spontaneous, he’s obligated by circumstances or by her stubbornness… so we can say the dual appearance he’s giving her is partly true (remember, Kyohei is not fake), even if it hides a more complex character. But at the same time she’s somehow conscious that he’s not really evil -unlike the sweet, beautiful and demonic girl in Cazotte’s book… (and Kyohei turning into a ‘camel’, uhhh! Too awful!!! )- when he talks with her, it has a great impact in her behaviour.
And we can wonder which one she prefers in fact : the dazzling angel he could look like ( she yells “don’t cut your precious face” in chapter 75, but when adding for explaining her behaviour towards him “it’s just that… you’re to beautiful… that’s all”, she corrects herself, in her thoughts, “somehow I don’t think so…I don’t think he’s radiant either…I… what came over me before… isn’t it that I didn’t want to see this person’s face cut?”) or the devilish buddy who has often made her nosebleed? She doesn’t want him to change, ne? I think she’s attracted to his looks (see in the dance chapter) but most of all, she seems quite comfortable with his bad personality (and she systematically points his defects when describing him… in chapter 50 when asked by the people working in the video shop and in chapter 75, in the infirmary). His harshness makes her react: his gorgeous body can only be a doll, but with his evil, teasing, rude and overly straightforward side, she can interact.
By the way, the angel appearance you noted is exactly used in chapter 54, in a very ironic way and in the guys’ point of view…




Thanks for deepening the Oedipus’complex thing… As I said, I’m not totally certain about this, I mean, there are some hints but it’s not as developed as others topics… It could be significant as a whole or be only a background for thickening the characters’ story, meaning only that they’re becoming more independent but without real deep psychoanalytical meaning…
And yep, yep, you’re right about the signification of fairy tales and the sexual situations regularly suggested in the manga. But there may be a little problem… I’m not sure if the fairy tale episodes here are so completely to be read in a sexual meaning as the real ones… errr,I mean, take each fairy tale and his PGE version:

- Little Red Riding Hood/ Sunako: she meets… Hiroshi and Akira, not Kyohei, who would normally be the big bad wolf/ sexual temptation in her life (and, at that time, he wasn’t as close to her as he is now, he was always teasing her in a suggestive manner)

- Snow White : 1) Sunako in the little fairy tale… she meets the guys who are princes, then impersonating the dwarfs … not beloved prince so far… except for…
2)… the kiss breaking the spell in the very first ghost story… their first kiss, but “passionless” said Kyohei… we know he’s a liar, but either way, the consequences are not developed in a fairy-tale-ish way (except for a detail, I’ll explain a little later). He saved their lives, not only Sunako’s by doing so.
3) Last, not least, Kyohei being Snow White… yeah, the meaning here is clearer, but it’s about his mother (Oedipus or not?), not Sunako…
(I realized writing this that we have here almost the whole story : Snow White running away, finding a new house and caring housemates, being awaken by a kiss…)

- Cinderella: 1) Sunako rides toward the mansion in the mini-chapter, where the princes are… Not her prince, but four of them, the whole gang… No romantic meaning so, I guess.
2) Uki being a kind of Cinderella at first…
3) the balls/ parties often organized by Aunty for finding a boyfriend for Sunako or turning her into a lady (Sunako is the prince needing a fiancée and/ or Cinderella herself)… Sunako doesn’t even wants to try…

- Beauty and the Beast : Kyohei and Sunako, but they don’t see themselves that way, that’s only the point of view of strangers and there isn’t any real situation with this tale as reference

-Sleeping Beauty: 1) Banquet for the Beautiful, as you said… but not romantic meaning
2) the kiss once again
3) Tamao and Ranmaru… but, as hard as he tries, he cannot wake up the expressionless/ so-called emotionless princess (at least he don’t realize she is already very awake and aware of his charm)… they didn’t manage to kiss in the forest…

- Donkey Skin: Sunako in her cloak! The beauty hidden by a cloak or a curtain, in the beach chapter (she wears a bikini), when Kyohei catches her after explaining the truth to Aunty and tipping (she’s a real princess)… But she has also her cloak in a reaction to the first kiss in the school roof and she’s covered by Kyohei in chapter 2 (here she’s really attracted to him) and in the AV chapter and that’s more revealing, ne? By the way, cutting the hair could be seen as a fairy tale hint too (Rapunzel)…

Same with the chapter where Kyohei, dressed as a prince and riding a horse, rescues her dressed as a witch/ dark princess: no sexual indication, beside Sunako finding him radiant.

Therefore, the sexual situations in them aren’t so much… just some hints (mostly Sunako being attracted), so more love than sex, suggested or not! There is also the nosebleed, which has sexual roots, as you pointed…

Nevertheless, the sexual meaning is very obvious with the ‘magical’ objects (except the comical mushroom perhaps)… The diamond is a feminine sexual symbol (round and related to women beauty), but the signification of this chapter is that Sunako refuses to be a princess so she gives the magic gift to Auntie and takes off “Cinderella’s” stilettos… The blade in another hand (scissor, knife, sword) is a phallic symbol… With the two of these, she ends on top Kyohei (once with the diamond, once with Kyohei holding a knife in chapter 75).
Beside, the sword is an interesting and frequent theme, usually in relation with Kyohei being hurt of menaced. In chapter 2, his face is cut by a scissor blade (Sunako wants the girls to apologize and she names him out and loud “radiant”, for the first time I believe); in chapter 75 so, he wants to cut his own face with a knife from her collection, she doesn’t let him (“you would cut your precious face”). After that, the blade is replaced by the vampire’s fangs and Kyohei’s face by his neck, but we can still see the same pattern. Here, Sunako holds the sword; that’s the climax of the arc… Those chapters are very fairy tale-like, the castle, the party reminding a ball (Kyohei like a prince everybody wants, searching for Sunako… Cinderella), the moment when Kyohei finds her lying in the balcony, like Snow White or the Sleeping Beauty, the vampire tempting Sunako, like a mysterious (and handsome here) Beast with a young maiden… In the first part, Kyohei is the prince, he saves her from falling… in the second part, Sunako is a knight, she has the sword; she doesn’t want Kyohei to be killed.
Then in the cat chapters,
there is the usual inversion: Sunako still holds a sword, a Japanese one this time, in response of the previous western one. Indeed, the tale here is probably more Japanase-like, certainly reminding the ghost stories Sunako and the prince talk about. Here, Sunako is aggressive, she wants to kill the prince and Kyohei. But, once again she stops before touching his head. She reacts to Kyohei being injured: the blood is very obvious (afterwards, it isn’t visible anymore; is it for making the scene more dramatic? Or because that’s reflecting Sunako’s vision?)
Thus, the mangaka keeps teasing us, twisting and playing with the significations of tales, both traditional and psychoanalytical ones…



About Kyohei being feminine, yeah! I had the same feeling!!! Because :

- Women have usually a very masculine behaviour towards him, they are very active (Japon is quite traditional if I’m not mistaken, cf. the ‘Yamato Nadeshiko’, the ideal woman…)
So as you said, he’s regularly groped, almost raped, men touch his butt, and see the fantasies about him, including handcuffs, chains, feathers … (SM, fetish items are a quite recurrent theme, not only related to Kyohei. They’re part of PGE world). He’s desired, but not as an active character: for example in the Goth Lolis’ dreams, he’s considered more as a sexual tool than as a man, unlike the other guys… Also in the host club, he’s almost sold as a sex slave… and that’s (sadly) generally a female role…
As for he pretends going out with Ranmaru, the girls’ reaction is to tell that Ranmaru isn’t interested in men… but they don’t know, or rather they don’t care about Kyohei’s (fake) inclinations, they only want to force their perverted dreams upon him…

- with Sunako : we already said that, at the beginning, he teasingly takes the initiative (“how do you know that I love bondage” when she comes to kill him… so funny!!!). But, when things between them are becoming serious (after the seduction scene in chapter 52), he’s often under her… he only comes back on top sometimes after the fried shrimp chapter and his thinking about the situation (if I remember well). But, one way or another, he’s voluntarily active and expectant with her only …
By the way, when she compares herself with him, we can wonder if there is a double meaning: she can think that he’s too beautiful for her or that he’s more beautiful than her (comparing herself with his beauty, like his mother… as if he were a girl so to say)

- errrrrrrrrr… he’s a virgin (he’s really lucky that his obsessive fangirls don’t know it!). As you pointed, Takenaga (so shy about his feelings for Noi) and Yuki (“Yuki has grown up!”) are probably too, but that’s not explicitly mentioned… He’s frequently saved… So, that suggests that he may not be really a damsel in distress but he’s at least certainly a maiden… symbolically speaking of course!

Therefore, as compensation, he has a very manly personality, he’s not weak: his fetish for Sunako’s wrists (already noted sometime ago…d*****mn! I thought it was a post about chapter 88 but couldn’t find it, so must be mistaken…As usual, if anyone knows… My sincere apologies! ), grabbing her… like taking her hand, but showing his strength and harshness… He thinks about sexual matters as a man: he’s “smart with AV” (in the video store), Ranmaru (!) asks him not to turn his seduction script into a “porn novel” in chapter 27 (that reminds of the books that the three other guys feel the need to hide from the mushroom-princess Sunako)… But there are only few clues, he’s not a pervert. And he’s a fighter, a gang leader, he knows how to drive a bike. This ambivalence makes him original and charming.


For the cat chapters,
I ‘ll only add a few remarks, because I completely agree with your analyse (and the innovations you pointed)… The “cat nature” part was very deep, I didn’t notice it! And I liked how you explained her new behaviour…
Sunako is really and openly worried about the cat : she wants to believe that he met his mistress. It's one of Sunako's contradictions : she doesn't believe in love but she wishes the happiness of the cat, like she did for Auntie in the c76 («even if it's just an illusion, since Oba-chan is so serious, I'll assist in any way I can!!») or for the guy in the c90 («Aren't you just pretending that you can't see what is in front of you?» «Who is your radiant star?»).
She tried to help Tamao and Noi previously too by cooking a special meal for them to be more beautiful and healthy...


There is a obvious parallelism with the vampire chapters. The gang is out of the mansion, in a place where the feeling of the past is still perceptible (a castle, a traditional Japanese house).
A male is attracted by Sunako (the vampire/ the prince). Kyohei is seen as a rival. The other man understands and acknowledges the love/ bond between the two and backs off… while at the very end the gang is disappointed by her…

Kyohei saves somebody sacrificing himself, Sunako, then the prince… and is afterwards awful, as always, fighting Sunako for impeding her to let the vampire drink her blood, and yelling very elegantly to the prince “you wanna lose you ass?!” That’s Kyohei for sure…

Kyohei is on top of Sunako first, then Sunako is on top of Kyohei… same inversion with the sword: she saves then attacks him…

The two are stories of deception in affection/love, although there are two different meanings: a love between darkness and light, thus betraying the darkness, but finally we understand that was an illusion, Elisabeth only loved the vampire; a love triangle… that was finally another illusion, because Onsen hasn’t chosen between the two faceless boys, she’s dead…

Moreover along with this parallelism, there are A LOT of references to the previous chapters…
- as for the vampire chapter, Sunako is enthusiastic about a usual situation (Halloween party, sakura tree watching)
- reference to Hokkaido: the fishing, the cold, Kyohei childishly crying because he’s hurt… also reference to the hot springs with the traditional dressing… the trip with the gang. The three episode (Hokkaido, hot springs and the cat) show stories of friendship, where Kyohei and Sunako are the example of a real bond, while the others only enjoy a fake one (her friend Yuki and her greedy boyfriend; Ranmaru and his evil lover; here the prince is engrossed in a dead end love too).
- once again, as in the vampire chapter, Kyohei tries to save Sunako for a danger: falling from the balcony, being possessed by the “white thing”(/ being proposed by the prince)… both times, he really tries to grab her out of it…The balcony reminds, in the chapter named “Test of True Love”, when he receives Sunako after her falling from the window
- Sunako sympathizes with the dark creature, who wants to kill Kyohei -the vampire and the cat. Here she is also possessed, so there is a kind of mixed reference to the chapter with the evil ghost, and the chapter with the diamond… jumping on Kyohei (diamond) and killing him(ghost). As a consequence, we can observe an evolution when comparing the cat episode to the other true possession by a ghost: the lady was a killer, a bad person, she wanted to kill every handsome guy from their house, which corresponded to Sunako’s feelings towards them, she didn’t want to live with them…while here, the ghost is a positive one, who is confused and thus acts badly, she feels empathy for it (remember the “pitiful creature” when looking for Hiroshi-kun). Its feelings mirror hers once again: same trouble, incomprehension (why is she/ it in this situation) and refusal towards the dilemma (while the rivalry between her two princes is evident for everyone, she chooses to ignore it… but when guided by the cat, the reality surfaces...)
- When she runs toward a waiting Kyohei : the Pheromone Bomb… but here, she stops herself
- explicit reference to the chapter at Takenaga’s house (the sword and the traditional daggers and armour)
- the nosebleed when a dazzling Kyohei is near her and him acting childish : very common! First after the very suggestive position at the beach… thus, we can say that these two nosebleeds happen after a very special moment between the two (here, him nearing her after the awkward position in the night and the talk for breaking the spell). No, she’s not that immune yet…

Therefore, I wonder : is that me or the cyclic, repetitive thing is speeding? I mean, after the fried shrimp fiasco : the beach, with the bikini, her third swimsuit (cute, when he jumps on her; everybody begins to hope again), Kyohei this time really becoming jealous with the nth rival (the tension rises) right after, the vampire night (two intense chapters, like a culmination), a quite sweet second Christmas (the tension slows down), Ranmaru (a breather), they sleep together (sweet again, the tension rises), another two very intense chapters resuming so much allusions to the previous moments, like a peak, (the cat), then finally another pause – Sebastian- full of mentions, like the bowling with Noi, the arcade in the first date… It wasn’t so fast before, was it??? I am really (heavily) overanalyzing?


About Auntie and Sebastian, I don’t know either if it could be love!!! ;)
But there is a correspondence between the two: Sebastian is attractive/ Auntie is a seductress; he’s the best in every game/ she’s the ‘the World’s Strongest Woman’… she was so funny running past Sunako and Kyohei!!!
I liked the part when Ranmaru decides to become like him when older, Kyohei states “he’s different than you. He doesn’t have ulterior motives” and Takenaga adds for Sunako “Ranmaru likes the ones who buy him stuff”! They don’t have any illusion about him!!!


Thanks for reading (well if you did resist till the end of this awfully long and boring post! I got carried away...)! ;)

Nice end of year to everyone!!!:yay:

[chibi-s]

More interesting posts edenwest and HMR1. Thanks. Its all very thought provoking and has given me insight into PGE but also shoujo in general. I wonder if these themes you are discovering in PGE actually come about in an unconcious way by the mangaka by parodying shoujo manga which utilise those themes. In the first few volumes the parody is more obvious than in later volumes. For instance, the fairy tale / gothic themes recur again and again in manga and i wonder if the authors now give much thought to the western origins. (what is it with shojo and vampires anyway?)
Kyohei's feminine attributes come about in two ways. Hmm actually 3. First of all he's a bishounen so his beauty transcends gender. Indeed he is an exaggeration of the bishounen beauty in shoujo. If you really saw a typical bishie walking down the street you probably would have a nose bleed. And the victim aspects again are an exaggeration of common events in shojo. e.g. popular boys being swamped with chocolates on valentines that makes them very uncomfortable, or being given cookies by the girls in the cooking club. Take that strange girly cult adoration, which ignores the boys' feelings, to extreme, and they are having their clothes ripped off.
And thirdly the damsel in distress is a flip of the usual boy rescues hopelessly feeble girl even if Sunako is only rescuing him in order to kill him herself. (I love that. So plausible!)
On top of that I think the artist is also making a criticism of shoujo. More than once Sunako and Kyohei have said words to the effect of "aren't we too young to make that sort of commitment?". Making a lifelong commitment at 16, which is typical in shoujo, is neither prudent nor realistic. Noi is the worst enthusiast for the romantic union between these two friends and equals. She's actually a victim of too much shoujo. It has warped her sense of reality.

Anyhoo ... keep up the posts. I'm really enjoying it. The stuff about grabbing by the wrists .. so interesting. Manga boys grab the wrist for yanking girls about, but hold hands for intimacy. Not sure what to make of that. Hmmm .. now I have to go back through some of my fav. shoujo and see which boys do the most yanking.
The other thing that bothers me, which I haven't seen in PGE, is boys that slam the flats of their hands against the wall they have just pushed their girlfriend against. That's really common but I haven't seen in it PGE. The boys, including Kyohei are just too civilised. Perhaps that's too hard to parody or comment on.

Has anyone read Full House Kiss? Its almost exactly the scenario of PGE without the jokes. I wonder which one came first. Or is the four gorgeous boys and one girl a recurring premise?

Well I'm rambling.

Thanks sooo much for the christmas presents! *two* chapters! I think it was the most exciting thing I got for xmas!

[edenwest]

Happy New Year!!! :pickle:
Thanks for our very nice comments!!! You brought up some very interesting ideas here!


On top of that I think the artist is also making a criticism of shoujo. More than once Sunako and Kyohei have said words to the effect of "aren't we too young to make that sort of commitment?". Making a lifelong commitment at 16, which is typical in shoujo, is neither prudent nor realistic. Noi is the worst enthusiast for the romantic union between these two friends and equals. She's actually a victim of too much shoujo. It has warped her sense of reality.

Yup yup!!! I totally agree! There is indeed a parody of shoujo in PGE and Noi is probably a great example of it!
Mangas in general appear here in three ways:

1) Common universe: the characters read manga inside the manga. There are allusions to famous masterpieces… Sunako yells “Doreamon, help me” in a drawer (hilarious!!!); when meeting Yuki’s siblings, the guys scream: “Yuki’s cells were spilt! Yuki is trapped in a modern day ‘timerip’! He was forced to take some weird medicine! I don’t know if it was in the future or at school!”… very science fiction like… But, a shrunken Yuki? Forced to swallow a weird medicine? Humm, isn’t that a Detective Conan/ Cold Case reference???
These two examples are used quite indirectly and in a comical way…
On the other hand, Sunako and Kyohei read “Ashita no Joe” and “Inugamike no Ishizoku” in the inundation chapter and are enough addicted to them to see them as a reason for not dying!
The PGE reader can also identify to them and to their familiar universe…

2)… making often reference to shoujo, in a parody, as you said: they are pushed in typical situation (Noi’s plan with every dovey-dovey cliché, unrequited love, long distance relationships (Yuki and Machinko), popular guys, rivals, first kiss, first –forced- date … and when meeting bad boys afterwards Kyohei says something among the lines of ‘that’s the scene every shoujo manga has to have’)… But, others genre are occasionally parodied too: fantastic stories of course, detective stories in the old springs, action stories (fights and the way the guys see themselves in the second Valentine chapter, ninja, gunmen, officer wearing an old uniform) so, historical old Japanese movies too, I suppose (the guys imagine Sunako wanting to kill her old classmates in a old fashioned style…once again ninja, occurring a few times)… Ranmaru (with Tamao) often refers to himself as Hikaru Genji… Books and movies are used to characterize the way they see themselves (see how often they have “imaginary visions”)…

3) … and, in every of these situations, the guys adopt the readers’ point of view towards our dear couple-to-be. They watch Kyohei and Sunako become closer: for instance when they are moon viewing, the housemates are in the balcony; when Kyohei hugs Sunako to comfort her for Hiroshi’s disappearance, they are behind the door, or behind the bushes in their date… In the fried shrimp chapter, they expect (like us!!!) a drastic move from Kyohei.
In the cat chapter, the guys comment "were you dreaming? Wishful thinking? Pent up emotions?"… aren’t those words echoing the interpretations we can have knowing the events that night? We know that he tells them really happened, but we wonder about his reactions: was he wishing to be with her in this kind of situation (the suggestive part, of course, not the murderous one!)?… Isn’t he getting frustrated with Sunako’s usual attitude and the whole prince matter?
Thus, they try their best to coax them to confess, creating favourable occasions, exactly the way every fan (and Noi’s the first one!) probably would like to do…
Everybody thinks they are fitted to each other and should be or already are in love… so we are, aren’t we? There is a clear parallelism… that keeps sadly deceiving! Ironically, the magaka makes our hero ask “aren’t you guys overanalyzing it?"

The magaka really tries, using humour, to make us think about the limits of shoujo genre, about what we expect in a story and why… That’s very revealing of the way PGE functions: there are some clues discreetly hinting a deep thought, but we must gather all of them and continue the reflection… or not. It’s definitively a multi-level manga, potentially very full of meaning, but the mangaka doesn’t seem to want us to take the story too seriously, keeping it fully a comedy.


For instance, the fairy tale / gothic themes recur again and again in manga and i wonder if the authors now give much thought to the western origins. (what is it with shojo and vampires anyway?)

I don’t think she is so much into relating shoujo with western culture… Sure, there are a lot of mentions,: some holidays long ago adapted in Japan (Christmas, Halloween, Valentine’s Day), and fairy tales, fantastic/gothic stories, horror movies continously getting involved in the structure of the manga (for instance, Sunako and Kyohei together are often related to zombies: in the arcade, in the movies in their date, when playing video games).
But those allusions are somehow quite limited to specific genres while there are noticeably much more mentions of many aspect of Japanese popular culture, probably deeper in PGE structure than the western ones: food and festival obviously, Edogawa’s books, the typhoon, a TV drama, another TV show somewhere (I can’t remember where, Sunako was a poor housewife and the guys, as kids, were asking for mandarins… I think…). Some are much more significant: the corpse under a sakura tree, ghost stories too perhaps…Oiwa-san mentioned by the prince and Sunako (they could almost imagine her “coming through that sliding door later”) is a betrayed wife, murdered by her husband and returning as a ghost for haunting him and his lover… a love triangle, an attempted murder, a vengeful ghost, Sunako coming at night thought that same sliding door, that makes sense, ne?
None of these Japanese themes are by the way directly related to shoujo either… while there are shoujo manga about vampires…
We don’t see every of those allusion and therefore can’t properly analyze them because we aren’t familiar enough with Japanese culture, so we certainly tend to (overly?) focus in the western aspects!

I don't know Full House Kiss... yet!!! Thanks for the comparison (and for reading!!!)!

[heechan]

I know it's a late thank you for the latest chapters but THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!!! your really the best!

About Sunako and Kyohei...

First, Sunako seems not that dark anymore... I mean yeah a dark aura still covers her and still look way scary but it's unlike the other chapters... She's more willingly to get out of her sanctuary...

and to Kyohei... He seems to have this... I don't know... the 'key to the darkness' role to Sunako which i find really good...

i'm really excited to read the last chapter of volume 24... I hope it's a great one!

and one more thing...

will the manga reach 100 chapters? well you know the rumors about there will only be 24 volumes for this manga... it's still bugging me to hell...

thank you for those who will answer!

[HMR1]

Whaaa... This thread is moving so fast !!!
It gives me boiling thoughts and I'm always surprised by where they drive me... Well, how to begin, now ?
I'll start by the ideas Edenwest developed in her older post.

About Sunako and the «devilish angel» Kyouhei,
Maybe Sunako’s status isn’t clear also because she voluntarily let the normal world. As for her ability to be possessed, I think that’s because she kind of lakes of something… she has already tore away a part of her personality, of her self…
Kyohei breaking the spell is a cliché in fantastic/romantic stories and tales… that’s quite ironic, I think…
I agree about Sunako. It's because she lacks something that she is easily possessed. And she said herself what was this something : she has given up being a woman. In pratical terms, she doesn't care any more about looking pretty (c03), about being a lady as her aunt (c36) or about loving someone (c59-c76). What is in play is the gender which seems to have lost significance. One result of the world's vision she developed, is that gender is suppressed : she doesn't talk about boys/men versus girls/women but dark creatures versus radiant ones. It let her remain in an asexual world – which cancels out her first love's failure. And then, she gives opportunities to the dark beings to possess her as Elizabeth explained in the c08 : «Plus her life is full of darkness. It's pointless for her to continue living. Why not just lend me the body and I'll help her live a happy life».

About Kyouhei, yes... I was playing with the double meaning. Of course, in the fairy tales, the «devoted prince» is the one who can break the magic spell and lead the princess to the happiness... In the fantastic tale, the devil is powerful and can do everything : he seems to do the good but it's just an illusion to trick his victim. But we can be relieved, Kyouhei will never be a camel !!!! :p

I do like how you explained the behavior of Kyouhei and the mixed feelings of Sunako towards him here :
But we see him mostly through her eyes, the beauty and the evil/selfish side… His deep words, his showing his real thoughts, that don’t totally match this “angelic devil’s figure”, are never spontaneous, he’s obligated by circumstances or by her stubbornness…[...]
And we can wonder which one she prefers in fact [...] I think she’s attracted to his looks (see in the dance chapter) but most of all, she seems quite comfortable with his bad personality [...]. His harshness makes her react: his gorgeous body can only be a doll, but with his evil, teasing, rude and overly straightforward side, she can interact.
Since she got used to live with him, she disconnected his appealing appearance from his behavior. She likes the dark side of Kyouhei. He is her game's partner and rival. She wants and enjoys to beat him. Even so, her desire of winning against him shows her unconscious interest : he is the only one that she wants to beat. That's the parallel of Kyouhei's teasing. And in a awkward or too close situation, we have the confirmation that she isn't immune to his radiance (c88, c97). Fortunately for us !

About breaking the possession, and the concern of each other,
At the same time, compare the chapter where Kyohei is a domestic man (77) with the mushroom one (27) : they are bothered by the other’s new behaviour and want once again him/her to be him/herself, either by refusing her transformation, either by competing with him. Their own role towards the other is questioned. Always an arc (in two chapters for Sunako) and its almost exact inversion (two chapter in a chiasm, here, for Kyohei)…
The comparison of those chapters is interesting. I'm not so optimistic about Sunako. Sunako in the c64 was pretty disturbed by this seductive/harassing Kyouhei because he was considering her as a girl (which makes her world unstable), and in the c77 because she had a rival that she couldn't beat. But it's not really better in Kyouhei's case. Clearly, in the c27, the new Sunako can't hold the houseworks : no cleaning, no cooking. And Kyouhei doesn't care at all about the «normal girl», he wants the perfect maid/cook back. In both cases, they reject the other's transformation for their own sake. Those chapters are really love killers !!! :lol:

So, I was wondering what Sunako thinks about Kyouhei's action in the c97. Contrary to what happened in the c08 where she has forgotten all, in the last c97, she knows that she was possessed : «Though I was manipulated by the kitty, some of its feeling still remain». She isn't afraid of what happened. She doesn't consider that it was dangerous for herself or for the others. And then, I have another question : why did she stop when Kyouhei resisted to her ? The optimistic view : because since c04, «killing him would be a pity». The pessimistic view : she realizes that she isn't concerned by the cat's dilemma and never consciously considered the choice imposed by the prince.

Now, about the comparison with the fairy tales. You did work on this !!!! *clap-clap-clap-clap*
Little Red Riding Hood/ Sunako: she meets… Hiroshi and Akira, not Kyohei, who would normally be the big bad wolf/ sexual temptation in her life (and, at that time, he wasn’t as close to her as he is now, he was always teasing her in a suggestive manner)
I find this special chapter pretty interesting. It resumes all the Sunako complex.
As you said, in the forest, Sunako meets Akira and Hiroshi, that are her first temptation : to remain in an inoffensive world playing with dolls. You were wondering about the jade's tablets. I don't know either : could it be the jade's tablets that the Chinese emperor used to give to the princes, and that they had to present each year to him ??? Then, it could mean the Sunako's allegiance to the dark world, but here she says : «These aren't jade tablets». So, her belonging is not so evident... Plus, after she doesn't want to follow the «elegant skeleton» [I couldn't help making the parallel with the c97 where she doesn't want to follow the prince], but she is driven against her will to the palace : as we know, she has given up being a woman, so she doesn't want to be exposed to the predator men symbolized by the guys dressed as princes and pretenders. Her nosebleed shows that unconsciously she is attracted by the opposite gender. Here there isn't any cruel and jealous mother : for Auntie, Sunako is the most beautiful girl. Sunako's fear is her own obstacle. In the last scene, the guys are dressed like the dwarfs : so they are men but not dangerous for her, just roommates who are scared of her «increasing eeriness». Yet, she holds the apple : she seems to have succumbed to the love's temptation... But Sunako is still unconscious : it's her protective withdrawal. And as you said, what is missing is the devoted and victorious prince that will definitely wake her...

What you said about Donkey Skin was really great !
Donkey Skin: Sunako in her cloak! The beauty hidden by a cloak or a curtain, in the beach chapter (she wears a bikini), when Kyohei catches her after explaining the truth to Aunty and tipping (she’s a real princess)… But she has also her cloak in a reaction to the first kiss in the school roof and she’s covered by Kyohei in chapter 2 (here she’s really attracted to him) and in the AV chapter and that’s more revealing, ne?[...]
Therefore, the sexual situations in them aren’t so much… just some hints (mostly Sunako being attracted), so more love than sex, suggested or not! There is also the nosebleed, which has sexual roots, as you pointed…

I think Cinderella's and Donkey Skin's tales work together here, and Kyouhei has an important role. For me, the mangaka illustrates Sunako's rejection of love and sexuality.

Since her rejection, Sunako doesn't want to be hurt anymore. So, she thinks that she can't be a princess (= an object of desire) and doesn't want to be exposed to the men's sight. She is afraid of them.
So, then, she wears a curtain as her donkey skin to protect herself from this danger : in the c12 when she remembers the kiss, in the c15 to hide her swimsuit, in the c16 to hide herself while at the restaurant with Ranmaru (!!), in the c36 to hide her dress, in the c56, to hide her gothic dress (she takes refuge in a tent), and in the c88 to hide her swimsuit again (in someway, I'm tempted to add the scarf that she puts on her eyes in the c68).

In all those chapters, it's Kyouhei who «uncovers» her, breaks her fears and gives her confidence, as the devoted prince does in the fairy tale towards the princess. In the c15, Kyouhei is the one who pushes her into the swimming-pool. Clearly in the c16 and c36, is the one who gives value to her as a woman : «Are you blind? I have a girl with me. We are in a date now. So you better not bother us», «You can easily beat your aunt with that dress». The c68 and the c88 are a bit similar : because of the competition with Kyouhei, she isn't any more hidden. Then, she is at the same time seen and exposed to Kyouhei's radiance : and she ends up with a massive nosebleed. The temptation again ?

But often, there is a trick with the end. In the c12, she stops running away but because she doesn't feel anymore in danger : it was a «passionless kiss». In the c56, Kyouhei is dressed like a prince and takes her in his white horse. But in the end, the resolution of Sunako is to wear the dress secretly, sharing only with her friends «Josephine and all». New protective withdrawal... The c68 ends with their usual fighting...

In other hand, Kyouhei is the one who protects her from curious eyes : of course in the c02, but most of all, in the c53 with the diamond's incident. He hides her nudity : he dresses her at the mansion, he covers her chest at school, and covers her with a curtain in the AV studio. He's the only one who saw her naked (c02, c52, c53). In the c88, he protects again her nudity. If I follow the comparison : I'm tempted to say that the mangaka places him in the situation of the prince who is the one allowed to take out the donkey skin and to be the princess' lover...

But if Sunako is also the only girl to have seen Kyouhei naked, she doesn't want to be the princess.
It's obvious in the c03. In her room, she's getting a nosebleed : «I saw it. I saw it. It's my first time seeing it (besides dad's)» (= the step between childhood and pubescent age)... Then she switches the topic from the gender to the beauty and her feeling of inferiority : «That is not important. More importantly, he saw me.» «My body is more beautiful than yours». But the memory of Kyouhei's body is vivid and she has a new nosebleed : «How have I become so perverted» «I need to get back to the darkness and fix up myself». She wants to erase this memory and remain in her asexual world.

You pretty well shown how her rejection in the c52 :
The diamond is a feminine sexual symbol (round and related to women beauty), but the signification of this chapter is that Sunako refuses to be a princess so she gives the magic gift to Auntie and takes off “Cinderella’s” stilettos…

And in the c53, the consequence of seing Kyouhei's naked body, is her over-reaction to cover her body with clothes, as many protective coats. Rejection again.

What you said about the blade's symbol was very interesting. And in the scenes you pointed, we can also see the inversion's roles : Sunako is the prince protecting Kyouhei, the princess in danger. So, the c97 is really intriguing : for the first time she hurts him (their usual fights don't count here). Here, he's acting as the prince, but the princess fights back and wants to eliminate the man. Another rejection.

About Kyouhei's passivity,
He’s regularly groped, almost raped, men touch his butt, and see the fantasies about him, including handcuffs, chains, feathers … (SM, fetish items are a quite recurrent theme, not only related to Kyohei. They’re part of PGE world). He’s desired, but not as an active character. [...] with Sunako : we already said that, at the beginning, he teasingly takes the initiative (“how do you know that I love bondage” when she comes to kill him… so funny!!!). But, when things between them are becoming serious (after the seduction scene in chapter 52), he’s often under her… he only comes back on top sometimes after the fried shrimp chapter and his thinking about the situation.
I agree with the idea of Kyouhei being only an object and not a protagonist of fantasy for the other girls (poor guy... It will end badly... lol). But concerning Sunako, I'm not sure. I mean : she surely would have him for some nice torture's experiments, but when Sunako is on top, unless in the first scene of c52, and in the ambiguous c97, she doesn't assume the sexual/ love connotation. In the c59, she fall over him, she wants to get up, and it's Kyouhei who maintains her : «You're fine right here». In the c66, she is admiring his muscles as a model for herself. He is the one who screams : «I'm being raped» and thinking about. In the c75, he grabs her wrist and also maintains her in the position. He is passive if we consider that he only exploits those unexpected opportunities... Cause he is the one who takes the lead when things are «serious» : in the c74, he does kiss her, in the c87, he chases and grabs her «It was you». For me, it's another ironic teasing of the mangaka : in appearance, we've got another inversion, Sunako taking the lead. (and for having watched the RAWS so many times, pics are really deceiving !!! :lol:)
About the grabbing thing, Sunako appears like an untamable cat (so different from the ghost in the c97...). He has to catch her to make her listen his point of view.

Even so, this idea of passivity drove me to consider again the Oedipus complex. Kyouhei seeems to have chosen the only girl who is running away from him, like his mother. In other hand, we can also say that he didn't chose her : she was brought to him... Once she is in the mansion, he gets curious about her... But he didn't look for her. Same kind of thing for Ranmaru : Tamao has been choosen by his parents... Is it a coincidence if it's the case for those two guys ??

About the cat's chapters, your comparisons are great. Concerning the first possession of Sunako, I'll just ask : was Elizabeth the only bad ghost ? The fact is Elizabeth was bored of living alone in a stranger country, and started a collection of lovers : they were only objects, - I'll say dolls... Is it really different from what Sunako dreams to do of Kyouhei ? Plus, the cat wanted to kill the two lovers to keep his mistress for him... Yes, at least, he had a real love towards her. But I'm less optimistic than I was. I can't help thinking that the mangaka tricked us again. Man, she gave us an endless love story between a mistress and her pet... :lol: Not between two equal beings...

Therefore, I wonder : is that me or the cyclic, repetitive thing is speeding?

I'll second you on that. I feel too that it's speeding... If you consider that in in the c82 it was the New Year, c88 summer, c92-c93 Halloween and c95 Christmas, a new year of this cyclic time has passed...

And if we look at the themes, I'll say that since c75, we have seen the outbreak of the pretenders (real beings in opposition to her dolls or heros like Jason...)
- In the c90, the fake lover : the guy only shows an interest towards Sunako because of his disillusion. She is as a way to forget the one he really loves.

- In the c91-c92, the tempting lover, the vampire... Of course, the vampire as a dark being is a tempting person. But if we consider that Sunako has given up being a woman, he is also tempting. The vampire needs to drink one's blood to live. Symbolically, it's an egoistic/self-centered love who doesn't consider the other's sake (Kyouhei says : "Don't fuck with her life to satisfy your damn ego"). She'll have to forget herself for the sake of the vampire. [I was about to say that vampirism is also an undervaluation of sexuality when Midnight Secretary crossed my mind. So, I take it back, and here I lack of knowledge about Japanese representation of vampires.]

- In the c79, c80, c96 and c97, the ideal lover, the prince, who is presented in opposition of Kyouhei. Certainly he's got the status, he shares the same interests than Sunako, and he can match her tastes by his skeletal but beautiful figure. He is resolved and confessed. But he's not «glamorous» at all : he is pragmatic, calculator and coward (he uses his power to imprison Kyouhei, he contacts his paranormal research to deal with Sunako's case). And it's seems to me that his love is not confident/ honest : he entertains Sunako with what she likes. He's afraid to loose against Kyouhei, as he confessed in the end of chapter. In the opposite, Kyouhei is poor, silent and hesitant when not a bad mouth, but he always confronts her when it's needed, and he risks his life to save the prince and Sunako... He's not a perfect prince but he truly understands her...

In other hand, since c75, there were a lot of moments between Sunako and Kyouhei where we find again their usual competition (c82, c88, c98), their common interests about food (c84, c85) or games (c95), Those chapters are full of false and teasing moments : Kyouhei and Sunako looking for their love fate (c82), Kyouhei pretending to go out with Sunako (c84), Sunako competing for Kyouhei (c85), Kyouhei and Sunako lovey-dovey in the beach (c88), Kyouhei and Sunako at the planetarium (c90), Sunako seducing Sandy Claws (c95). And at the same time, there are hints of the real care of Kyouhei towards Sunako : more than ever, he is our saving «prince» (c79, c92, c97) by his acts and his words. He wonders himself if he's in love (c87), and he is worried about her when he thinks she was dumped (c90).
The question is what can we truly believe about Sunako ?

And about the shoujo's parody Edenwest and Chibi-s were talking...
Certainly, Tomoko Hayakawa plays with us, readers of shoujo ! It's why it's so funny...
She's always teasing us, diverting the so expected scenes... Sometimes, I'll say that it's cynical : what about the c07, Sunako spending the Christmas Eve, the «lovers' day», with a rapist ? In the Valentine's days chapters, Sunako is the one getting chocolates : she does for herself and her dolls in the first one, and she receives from the guys' fans in exchange of their clothes in the second one... The men are excluded...

And I'm tempted to say that the recurrent SM and fetish items translate the consequences of what chibi-s called :
the strange girly cult adoration, which ignores the boys' feelingsto extreme.
Even if the manga deals with what is the ideal woman, here, it's the guys who are reduced to «sexual objects» for self-satisfaction. This vision of women isn't too much present : there is the Ranmaru's case (desperating... lol) and in the c05, with the man harassing Noi during the party, and in the c29 with the «evil lover» of Auntie. Certainly, the guys were vainly trying to turn Sunako into a lady, but it's only one aspect : the look imposed on her. In the other hand, there is an introspective aspect : the own girls' representations are questioned.

The mangaka dismantles all the love's clichés – what a girl is supposed to aim to.
Noi is the typical shoujo heroin : she is always conceiving unreal plans who systematically fail (as in the c81 or the c89). It shows also her duality : her deceptive behavior which contrasts with her "necessary" cute/ beautiful appearance. Even so, she is loved by Takenaga who gives her proofs of his love in spite of his fears/clumsiness/shyness (c31, c43, c48, c61, etc...). As I already said somewhere Noi illustrates the gap between a dreamed love and to really love someone with his/her defaults.
And somehow, it's ironic that the kiss occurs in the c74 where Noi tried to put Kyouhei and Sunako in all of the possible shoujo situations... Was it just only autosuggestion, a "moment of confusion" as said Kyouhei ? :sly:

And at the same time, the characters are really coherent/ complex : they aren't reduce to the ideal type they represent. And After 97 chapters, the Sunako's mind is still hard to read !!

About the western references, well... I have to confess my current ignorance about Japanese tales/ mores... So, I'm missing a lot of things... But I can't believe that this mangaka does a reference concerning the tales' aspect by chance. And for me the fact that she is a fan of Tim Burton confirms her purposely design...

Concerning [I]Full House Kiss, I read it... And I have to say that I didn't think to the comparison with PGE before you mentionned it. Yes, there are four guys and a girl living in the same house, but for me the plot is really different.

And to end, and to reply to Heechan, sure there will be a 25th volume!!!
That was a long post again, and I was loosing my concentration... Hope it will be clear...

[chibi-s]

Concerning Full House Kiss, I read it... And I have to say that I didn't think to the comparison with PGE before you mentionned it. Yes, there are four guys and a girl living in the same house, but for me the plot is really different.


Oh definitely. Its just the setup that is the same. But not just four guys. The guys are the same stereotypes. Even the same hair colour (except for the Kyohei analog). After thinking about it a bit more, I think the FHK mangaka must have just "borrowed" (ripped off) the superficial parts of PGE. Its too similar to be just a recurring premise.

And I should have made myself clear .. FHK is pretty stupid.

[edenwest]

Well, even if Full House Kiss isn’t as deep as PGE, it doesn’t really matter: it’s always interesting to compare similar stories differently developed! Personally, I didn’t like Ouran, for instance but the comparison is nonetheless significant…

About HMR1’s previous contribution:

Your post was great!!! The part about fairy tales… the analyze of the pretenders outbreak!! And Sunako an untamed cat!! I liked the whole of it!!! Thanks for these deep thoughts!!!

So, I’ll just add a couple of comments on more secondary topics …

So, I was wondering what Sunako thinks about Kyouhei's action in the c97. Contrary to what happened in the c08 where she has forgotten all, in the last c97, she knows that she was possessed : «Though I was manipulated by the kitty, some of its feeling still remain». She isn't afraid of what happened. She doesn't consider that it was dangerous for herself or for the others. And then, I have another question : why did she stop when Kyouhei resisted to her ? The optimistic view : because since c04, «killing him would be a pity». The pessimistic view : she realizes that she isn't concerned by the cat's dilemma and never consciously considered the choice imposed by the prince.

Oh oh oh!!! That’s right! Didn’t realize! She remembers! For the first time, she calmly remembers!!! Ohhhhhhhh! That’s means she somewhat knows she/the cat jumped Kyohei, slipped his clothes off and caressed him :o ...and strangulated him too, ok…
And I want to think she can’t stand the idea of him being killed or hurt! She already has proved she felt concerned about his safety… And she’s moved by the kitty’s story and feels concerned about it, she’s happy for it (even in her macabre way, with skeletons and proper grave)! Let’s be optimistic, just for once!

And I'm tempted to say that the recurrent SM and fetish items translate the consequences of what chibi-s called :
Quote:
Originally Posted by chibi-s
the strange girly cult adoration, which ignores the boys' feelingsto extreme.
Even if the manga deals with what is the ideal woman, here, it's the guys who are reduced to «sexual objects» for self-satisfaction. This vision of women isn't too much present : there is the Ranmaru's case (desperating... lol) and in the c05, with the man harassing Noi during the party, and in the c29 with the «evil lover» of Auntie. Certainly, the guys were vainly trying to turn Sunako into a lady, but it's only one aspect : the look imposed on her. In the other hand, there is an introspective aspect : the own girls' representations are questioned.

I totally agree! Very well said!
Nevertheless, there could be more aspects in the topic…
Sure, SM, fetish and more generally kinky things (items or acts) are quite usual in PGE, and, although they are only hinted, they’re also rather openly displayed. They are nonetheless not only related with the extreme fangirling around Kyohei (chains, rope, feather)… They appear sporadically: once, we can see Ranmaru holding a spiked bludgeon against him, when he forces him to go on a date. Noi’s outfit in the clothing shop, in chapter 67, is quite… suggestive if not truly fetish… frilly black thingy…
In the dance chapter, two evocative items: the blindfold and handcuffs... Not to mention Sunako having a quite feminine reaction towards her partner when blinded from his radiance. We can continue with Kyohei and the rope (at school and when avoiding being murdered), Sunako excited to find Kyohei handcuffed to the wall in the tower ‘how shall we torture him?”… That reminds of the evil ghost chapter where all guys are handcuffed to the wall in the cellar… I’ll relate that with what you said about the similarities between the bad ghost and Sunako wanting Kyohei for her doll.
Moreover, in that ghost chapter, our possessed Sunako makes a move towards Ranmaru, sliding down his torso (I really hope she’s only kissing…O.o): he moans ‘ah!’, the guys blush; Takenaga says ‘She lives up to her name’ (certainly playing with the ghost’s name) and Kyohei ‘If Sunako Nakahara were actually like her…’.Yuki, the less perverted of them, interrupts ‘ Please! This isn’t the time to think of that’. While, in the second Valentine‘s chapter, she licks (asexual, but kinky!) the chocolate splattered on Ranmaru, he moans ‘Ah!’ and Kyohei… punches them! The guys are irritated and say ‘don’t ‘ah’ us!’ ”Us” including Sunako (before, she was only the girl, and them the boys) and Kyohei getting angry, quite an evolution!
I think, at the same time they question girls’ representations and desires, the kinky/fetish/SM allusions also try to compensate for the lake of proper romance in the manga: no real and stable relationship yet… Yuki/ Machinko, Noi/ Takenaga are still struggling with their doubts and insecurities. As you said, the only one who is active in sexual matters, Ranmaru, is seen as quite ridiculous (he’s overdoing himself!) and actual situations are only suggested, not clearly showed, except some comically blurred. In those, in chapter 22 or chapter 94, he’s with various girls at the same time, not with a particular lover. So we never see him alone with a special one of his kitties (or with Tamao) in a position like Kyohei and Sunako, who in fact do nothing, are in the diamond chapter, for example… To use a little off topic, overly sexualized items is perhaps a way to show refrained feelings, “pent up emotions”.

By the way, speaking of the tower, I didn’t realize before: the guys are following her, she avoids every trap for ‘rescuing’ Kyohei, who has been kidnapped by the prince (she’s not rescuing him, in fact! She thinks he is about to be tortured) and her ankle is damaged…
In chapter 86, she is harassed by the fangirls : there are many traps, but she says ‘I’m good at evading falling objects’ and … her ankle is injured. Meanwhile Kyohei says ‘I’ll protect…’ and their friends are spying them. That finally leading to him saving her from being raped (tortured in a way too) when she’s kidnapped by the fake pretty boys. These are, like the prince, jealous of Kyohei, and seem a kind of twisted replica of him…
Parallelism (same kind of action) and inversion (she’s not saving him/ he saves her)… In both case, the mere knowledge of the other being here is sufficient for making the attempt fail: Sunako knowing Kyohei is in the tower makes the prince feel guilty (she doesn’t mean it, though); Kyohei’s real radiance when appearing makes the fake ones run away. A prince in shining armour…


But if Sunako is also the only girl to have seen Kyouhei naked, she doesn't want to be the princess.
It's obvious in the c03. In her room, she's getting a nosebleed : «I saw it. I saw it. It's my first time seeing it (besides dad's)» (= the step between childhood and pubescent age)... Then she switches the topic from the gender to the beauty and her feeling of inferiority : «That is not important. More importantly, he saw me.»*«My body is more beautiful than yours». But the memory of Kyouhei's body is vivid and she has a new nosebleed : «How have I become so perverted» «I need to get back to the darkness and fix up myself». She wants to erase this memory and remain in her asexual world.


Seeing Kyohei naked… unfortunately, Sunako is not the only one (in the AV chapter; when bathing in the mountains) and everyone (except the guys!) ends having nosebleeds.
There are in fact three mentions of his… errrr… manhood with the corresponding reaction from his housemates. First, in the shower, with Sunako (as you analyzed, massive nosebleed and hysterical “I saw it!”, then changing the topic). Then, at the hot springs, bathing with the guys, they, especially Ranmaru, find the impudicity of his position offending. Last one : in the Valentine’s chapter, when Kyohei is seen naked by Sunako, she is shocked, her mind goes blank, but no further reaction, while the guys get quite angry (“what ‘came out’ in your ‘pi-chan’!). These four friends (including Sunako and her ambivalent reactions) are the only ones who don’t see him as a sexual object (even Aunty, who at first wanted to help him, tends to see him as one for Sunako using).

In the same sort of ideas, about Sunako wanting to stay asexual, what you said is right:

Since she got used to live with him, she disconnected his appealing appearance from his behavior. She likes the dark side of Kyouhei. He is her game's partner and rival. She wants and enjoys to beat him. Even so, her desire of winning against him shows her unconscious interest : he is the only one that she wants to beat. That's the parallel of Kyouhei's teasing. And in a awkward or too close situation, we have the confirmation that she isn't immune to his radiance (c88, c97). Fortunately for us !

I totally agree!
There are undeniably a few hints that she somewhat regularly sees him as a man: the nosebleed although not explicitly presented as sexual reactions (errrrrr… minus at the beach…), at some point finding him dazzling (she angrily says « Doesn’t he always look radiant”, after the real kiss, when the guys worry about her)… There seem indeed to be two aspects in her relationship with Kyohei: the shinning beautiful prince, a real man she fears and, on the other hand, the not always dazzling casual buddy who fights her, teases her and who she doesn’t want to see as a guy… as if she had separated two sides of him previously reunited in the first chapters, the teaser and the pretty boy, in relation with her as a (negate) woman… Hence she becomes angry when “harassed” by him, like a betrayal… probably because he reminds her that the two sides are in fact the same (but not only because of that…). As you pointed, she seems to have equilibrated the dilemma of living with him by trying to ‘erase his existence’… as a male.
In that interpretation, the reappearance of the usual symptoms, the nosebleeds, finding him radiant, finding them all blinding (when dressed by Sebastian), which had almost disappeared could be significant. She must get a hold of herself, return to her previous unconfident self… Because the main problem is that she is not really asexual: deep inside, she’s a woman and she begins slowly and still unconsciously to realize (“I’m a younger woman! I’ve confirmed it now!”) But what can have made her begin to change here?...

… well, as Heechan has indicated, she seems to be less dark recently… in fact, that made me think about Sunako’s appearance, particularly her way of dressing.
When she is dressed up, usually by the guys, her clothes can be categorized:
- traditional clothes (yukata, kimono and so)
- gothic dresses
- princess/lady-like dresses (normally choose by Aunty, or in the mushroom chapter)
- the most usual clothes, generally long skirts, top with long sleeves, partly dark, elegant but covering most of her body. I’ll call it the ‘asymmetrical style’, because it often includes an asymmetrical element. It somehow matches the guys and Noi’s clothes and has a very vague kind of fetish aspect (a buckle, black ribbons, that kind of things). I lake of appropriate terms, but it resumes to whole style of the manga.
This usual style tries to be a little sexy on Sunako, but at the same time hides somewhat her body. For example, we know they make her wear stockings, but they only appear by accident (when fighting Kyohei in chapter 17, with an example of ‘asymmetrical style’, or for Christmas Eve). And Noi’s version is far more alluring (in the boss chapter, for example).

That’s even worst when she spontaneously dresses herself up:
- a (little baggy) dress hiding a uniform, maybe referring to the ‘asymmetrical style’
- a girly dress, showing bad taste (the Granny chapter), clearly parodying theirs
- (cute) boy’s clothes, somewhat balancing the very girly/ “sexy” ones the boys previously tried on her and imitating the gothic dresses
- comically, se imagines a really feminine outfit… for meeting an hypothetical Jason in the mountains!

Not to mention the swimsuit arc…

Clearly, the guys don’t really dare/ achieve to dress her for outside in a very cute and appealing way, like that frilly outfit tried on by Noi…
Her lake of confidence is, obviously, getting in the way. When she’s seen naked (shower/ hot spring/ girl’s bravo chapters), her body seems almost as asexual as she feels. When she wears a dress without sleeves or with a collar that we could find a little low-cut, like in the seduction scene or, just after that, when she talks with her aunt, she hides her upper body by adding a transparent jacket or a cloak…
Then, the diamond scene takes place and her beautiful body is revealed. But, after this shocking event, things return to normal: in Dream –Mutual Love, she shows a gothic dress, but the neckline is still veiled.
The only low-cut dress with thin straps appears in the body-building chapter (‘asymmetrical’ type), when she is proud… of her muscles! Pretty ironic!! The following chapters don’t show any real change, she has lost this ephemeral confidence: veiled chest in the dance, transparent shawl in the club where she works.
In a few words, some attempts to make her more self-confident always backfiring…

Suddenly, in the fried shrimp chapter, there’s a major turn of events:
1) she finds ‘the Sunako inside the mirror’ pretty
2) so she dresses herself up in an ‘asymmetrical’ outfit
3) and thus she goes in his room and run away from him when he comes too close. She then could be beginning to believe in Kyohei’s sincerity, in the hallway.
However, he has backed off (although she has made him, because he certainly would have kissed her if she hadn’t pushed a shrimp inside his mouth).
Following her previous logic, she would probably believe he was once again mocking and harassing her, as she though after the real kiss and after him hugging her in the unrequited love chapter. So, at the beach, I think that’s the unsaid reason behind such an anger when she has so cruel thoughts: « he might be a person… but he is heinous and inhumane… to this man [I](not dazzling creature)… to this fucking man…I WILL NOT loose…!!!” The apparent motive is that he has once again spoken about money, trying to use her, as he has always done for the rent. But he has said “didn’t we give back your clothes?”… so running “for the sake of going back to Tokyo” is still important (the sun, the heat), but not as vital as it was before, isn’t it? She nevertheless seems as angry with him for competing against her as she was with Ranmaru, who stole her clothes! She even takes off her cloak for defeating him! I think there is definitely something undeclared fuelling her rage… In a normal situation, with him opposing or teasing her, she would have simply kicked him. Here, she doesn’t want to compete, although she knows she can win against him; she doesn’t touch him. And before that, she thought “His voice didn’t come out…did I break the watermelon?”; she was obviously focalizing on Kyohei. That’s why I’m convinced the previous events in the mansion are the key for completely understanding her behaviour at the beach.

And, then, her clothing is finally changing! She ends up in a bikini (end of the swimsuit arc until now) which largely shows her body. But she’s no more aware of it, because she’s cross…
In the vampire chapters, a corseted dress, reminding somehow what she hided under her cloak. But this princess-like outfit shows her chest when Kyohei looks at her in the balcony, without her knowing it…
She’s still unaware in the Christmas chapter that her dress with thin straps -reminding of the body-building one and thus probably ‘asymmetric style’- offers him a great view of her legs and breasts…
The tank top in the end of terms chapter isn’t really low-cut, but sleeveless and that’s a real progress for her. It certainly copies the game characters’ outfit but also is also masculine (as her previous boy’s clothes). It remains an imaginary representation, thus not real.
The cat chapter: traditional clothes, revealing once again her breasts to Kyohei at night and to everyone in the morning. Sunako’s still unconscious.
At last, in the chapter dedicated to Sebastian, there is a mixing of every style: gothic with the black veils, ‘asymmetric’ with the buckle at the collar, princess with gathered fabric on the chest… and a generous décolleté. She’s not really embarrassed. She tries to protest: “Sebastian, these clothes are… -Are you pleased with them ?” - (thinking : “ No… no…”) loud : “I’m re-e-e-e-ally pleased” … and she wears them outside !

By showing our unfeminine dark girl with low-cut collars, the mangaka seems to sexualize almost systematically every of her previous clothes, but, until the last chapter, that remains unnoticed by Sunako. And not only in front of Kyohei (that would have been a trick, teasing us readers)!
That’s why I wonder if the author doesn’t want to gradually and discreetly change our vision of Sunako and perhaps her image of herself too, after chapters 84-87. This group of chapters works as a whole, showing the public acknowledgement of her fitting Kyohei as a possible girlfriend and his failed confession.
Here, I can’t help but think about Kyohei: he has changed too since the beginning. From the rude, rough and almost insensible guy in the first chapters, he’s become in our eyes somebody more fragile, quite sweet, who cares about people and deserves being cared about, while at the same time keeping his personality. This evolution has slowly taken place after chapters 35-39, which function as another unit, with many episodes connected as a sequence : the failed seduction and the almost kiss/ Sunako kind of rejecting him, his returning at home/ his mother, then Sunako, rejecting him for the second time, thus Kyohei running away/ Sunako making him come back...
In both cases, a failed sort of confession and, between the lines, the possibility of love make things change very slowly. And the nosebleed reappearing would be logic then: unconsciously she really begins to see him as a man.
And both times, their situation seems to go back to their previous status quo (still rude/ dark, still fighting, still nosebleeds), while in fact their relationship and their inner self is progressing. The clothes would be here, for Sunako, the sign of this change.
(Woooo… hope that wasn’t too annoying… that is quite roughly thought and needs to be polished!)


Even so, this idea of passivity drove me to consider again the Oedipus complex. Kyouhei seeems to have chosen the only girl who is running away from him, like his mother. In other hand, we can also say that he didn't chose her : she was brought to him... Once she is in the mansion, he gets curious about her... But he didn't look for her. Same kind of thing for Ranmaru : Tamao has been choosen by his parents... Is it a coincidence if it's the case for those two guys ??
I don’t think that is a coincidence… Kyohei and Ranmaru are two interesting characters when compared… They look quite alike (the mangaka needed to change their hairstyle for clearly differentiate them). Ranmaru is for me the antithesis of Kyohei (see their clothes: frilly vs casual), what he could have been if he weren’t a women hater.

Besides, about what you said sometime ago:

Well, we can consider that Sunako was the first preoccupied by love, but in a negative and denying form. In the manga, she is pretty busy to dismantle every hint of love to not be deceived by its illusion. I was thinking to the c46 : «This is a date? No, no it isn't possible» «We aren't a couple so how can we go on a date ?».
And in conclusion, Kyouhei replies to her : «Who cares if it is a date or not [...] We had fun, ins't that enough ?». (...)
And in someway in the c75, his statement is similar : «World you say? Haven't we decided that they're the same... since we live together ?». Who cares about dark/ bright worlds, we're living together.
So, it was amazing to see him consider love in the c87 because for the first time, he wants to enunciate/ classify what he is feeling. It's unusual and bothering for him : «Just show me the damn answer». And as he isn't ready to assume the answer, he jumps to the shrimps' solution, and returns to his usual behavior. The way he's living now is better than nothing and better than rejection.


That’s right! in some way both of them have indeed opposite attitudes: Sunako’s afraid of getting involved in another similar situation as she was previously. Thus, she’s anxious about labels reminding of love, dates, kisses, holding hands and so. Getting put into the real thing seems for her less damageable than the world characterizing it: going out with Kyohei is enjoyable, it’s suicide when called a date; she can live with him every day, but doesn’t believe she can stand it when knowing that she shares an apartment with him. She has the same approach than Noi, but inversed: Noi wants those perfect situation for her dreamed love, whereas Sunako avoids them at all costs.
Meanwhile, Kyohei doesn’t worry about characterizing the situations he’s in: he cares about the fun that he feels. When, for the (amazing as you said!) first time he thinks about his feelings, it’s appears almost like an alien equation; can the sum of everything he lived with her, every entertaining moment, possibly equal love?
Unfortunately, I once again agree with you, typifying or going with the flow, none of them is getting very close to an acceptable answer.

Ooooops! SM items, a naked Kyohei, Sunako’s chest… O.o I’m afraid this post seems pretty perverted, sorry!!! :)

Thanks for reading!

[Ginoru]

Hi! First Happy New Year !! XD

Well, everytime i read your interesting conversation always pops up in my mind about various topics but since i have been living crazy weeks (Spain has a looong Xmas) and had to come in a rush i never got to comment anything, and right now i can't remember XD

I remember i wanted to tell you to be carefull when you use the first chapters translations as reference for what character or other said since between the english editions (Usa/British) and the scanlations there are differences.

What you are going to read is very random i hope you don't go mad, sorry.

Kyouhei since the kiss ep has been pushing forward certain situations and allowing others to happen with Sunako even if later it seems he backs, it's like he just gives a half step back to go a bit further in his next step, he has grown in confidence related to her and it's testing the waters to see where he can get and where he will get himself into, and Sunako is much more unwarded towards him, allowing him to go further towards her. I think they know in what point they stand but are testing each other to know if the next step is safe and they are in no hurry.

Things are more evolved than it looks at first sight, just like the mangaka`s drawing style

Mmmmm what else? .... ah yep! behaviours. The way Sunako behaves when she is alone with Kyouhei and realizes there's no one to freak out at her Mabushi outburst she changes and acts with him with total normality, well as normal as they can be, like when they were living toguether, he provided her her defenses (covered bed) and she just used it for a little and stepped out to live with him normally and when they went to the public baths they were totally content; no one around=no pressure(real or imaginated)=they act normal/they toguether without pressure=the real them, comfortable with each other, despite they are still unsure they want to be as comfortable with another person, total normal reaction for two persons so wounded in the affections-relations areas; but they are daring more and more latelly and the steps backwards are smaller.
Sunako's behaviour towards Yuki is one i find very interesting, he is one of the bright ones but for your life!! don't dare to hurt him! it's like is she had adopted him like a little brother or pet or something like that ^^
Sunako and Ranamru is funny, like if he were a testing subject. Then there's no real Sunako and Takenaga but Takenaga and Sunako, he is her call to order and reality, and forms a very interesting "triangle" with Kyouhei, at first Kyouhei always tended to go to him whenever he was scared or stressed or something happened to him, but latelly that rarelly happens, since Kyouhei is closer to Sunako Takenaga is like watching from the barrier, like a boxing trainer watching in case he has to step into but doesn't, and i love that Takenaga is more and more a "wathever" person instead of the pent up one he was, he shows his evolution too.
Her relation with the girls is also interesting, she is their friend but the feeling is more "because a girl has to have girl friends" of course she likes them but she is closer with the guys and even herself turns one of the guys sometimes. I guess that has to do with the way japanese society sees some things, independent and powerful woman = masculinized woman.

Another thing i think it was the way it shows sexual matters, from teen normal realtions to more "selected" sexual practices, all is presented sincerely without mistery, teasingly yep but never hides anything. Oh and SMBD is one of the more normal perversions in japanase society so including it it's just normal.

Ah Yes! The parody factor, for me the manga is a big critic to several aspects of japanese culture, popular culture; like stereothypes from what a shoujo has to be, a shoujo doesn't need to always be boys meets girl girl meets boy fall in love accepted or unrequited and has to fight against the world and circumstances to triumph, you can be your worst enemy; kawaii is not always where people want to seek it (i hate Hello Kitty for example); not always pretty and cared means possitive; characters with brain and real preocupations are cool too, there are more than one way to see life and that is correct too, not everyone has to be an exemplar kid and grow up to be a salaryman/woman, underground cultures (lolitas, Visuals, Jrock) are also culture and don't need to be looked down etc...

I know there were more things but right now i can't think about them.


Oh yes, i have been reading the drama web page and they have a couple of points that you may find interesting (i really really hope they are in contact with Hayawaka sensei and this comes from talking with her >.< if not i think at least it'd give light to how they see the manga around there)

1. They will be playing the inferiority complexes both for lack and for excess; Sunako lacks confidence in being good enough/pretty and Kyohei lacks confidence of ever being considered normal.

2. Is there a person in this world that without being captivated by the appearance can see the real one? Sunako and Kyouhei that have no confidence in themselves have the chance to meet, and triggered by each other’s existence, like a mirror, will have the chance to face themselves and grow.

3. 5 young pesons with inferiority complexes. In order to move forward they will have to learn to “like themselves/accept themselves by who they are”. The traditional “prettiness/what is pretty” goes beyond borders.

4. (From Takenaga's card) The most adult in the house notices the darkness in Kyohei's mind. He doesn't interfer/doesn't like to interfer pointlessly he just watchs Kyouhe's growth only occassionally helping/ with unpretentious help.


And they opened this about the original work

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c292/ramcibella/Japon%20-%20Manga%20-%20Anime%20-%20Doramas/Manga%20y%20Anime/Yamato%20Nadeshiko%20Sichi%20Henge/Dorama/th_yamanademangainweb.jpg (http://s29.photobucket.com/albums/c292/ramcibella/Japon%20-%20Manga%20-%20Anime%20-%20Doramas/Manga%20y%20Anime/Yamato%20Nadeshiko%20Sichi%20Henge/Dorama/?action=view&current=yamanademangainweb.jpg)

[HMR1]

Hi ! Happy New Year all ! It's so nice to have PGE chat buddies !!!
Let's wish for all of us a year full of great chapters and thoughts about PGE !!! :D

So many things to discuss...
I'll come back to the comparison of Chibi-s with Full House Kiss...
Oh definitely. Its just the setup that is the same. But not just four guys. The guys are the same stereotypes. Even the same hair colour (except for the Kyohei analog). After thinking about it a bit more, I think the FHK mangaka must have just "borrowed" (ripped off) the superficial parts of PGE. Its too similar to be just a recurring premise.
This series started in 2004, so, probably the mangaka copied a part of PGE : yes, there are four handsome guys, they are living together, and the girl is hired as their maid... But, to tell all, the series that I thought that was copied is Nadeshiko Club... Here the plot from MangaUpdates :
«Reo-chan, a first year girl, gets dumped by her boyfriend because she's not skilled in the home economic traits he believes women should have. Her ex tells her that she must apply to a "housework" club before he will reconsider going out with her. Therefore Reo-chan has little choice but to join.
Here's the catch: the only members are four gorgeous bishies. The other first year in the club, Irinaka, competes with her a lot. As the story progresses Reo and Irinaka get forced into a lot of interesting situations together and in the meantime become closer and closer.»
This series started as PGE in 2000, and the similar themes easily appear : the four boys, a girl dumped, a path to improve herself... It's hard to say who copied, and... Well, errrr... I coulnd't stand the series that I found pretty stupid, so I didn't follow the updates... For me, the mangaka of this series did the opposite of PGE, remaining in all the shoujo's clichés we pointed (and I like what Ginoru said about the parody). But as I didn't read all, maybe I was wrong in my perception ? Has someone read this ?

At last, the question of chibi-s drove me to wonder about the symbolic of number «four» : why four guys ?? I couldn't help thinking that the number four is a cursed number for Japaneses, and if I understand well, one of its readings is «shi», meaning «death» ??? I know that's probably over-analized, but I loved that idea : four guys that will drive you to death... Of course, at the start, with all her nosebleed, it seems to be a concret danger; but it can be seen in a symbolic way too : «You'll never be the same»...
And the other association that I see is with the cardinal points : four different guys, expressing theirselves in four different ways...

Now, about what Edenwest said concerning the SM and fetish items...
You well pointed the scenes where they appear... I just wanted to comment what you said here :
I think, at the same time they question girls’ representations and desires, the kinky/fetish/SM allusions also try to compensate for the lake of proper romance in the manga: no real and stable relationship yet… Yuki/ Machinko, Noi/ Takenaga are still struggling with their doubts and insecurities. As you said, the only one who is active in sexual matters, Ranmaru, is seen as quite ridiculous (he’s overdoing himself!) and actual situations are only suggested, not clearly showed, except some comically blurred.
That I connect with what said Ginoru :
Another thing i think it was the way it shows sexual matters, from teen normal realtions to more "selected" sexual practices, all is presented sincerely without mistery, teasingly yep but never hides anything. Oh and SMBD is one of the more normal perversions in japanase society so including it it's just normal.
If it's a «normal perversion» in Japanese society, then I find its use even more efficient in the way Edenwest said... As she said : there isn't real and stable relationship yet in the manga. So, for me those fantasies illustrate well the gap between a dreamed and greedy liking towards someone idolized (= once again, reduced to a «doll» that you want to possess), and true-life/real love.

About the ridiculous of Ranmaru, I couldn't help to think to the times he appears cross-dressed, with a «drag queen» look. He appears like that in the c16 and in the c46 when he wants Kyouhei to go out with Sunako, in the c24 (he talks about how to break the mushroom's spell), in the c28 (when he talks about his supposed son : «Ranmaru 15 years old would definitely not make a mistake like that» :Dante:), and in the c55 (he's «educating» Yuki as a perfect host).
He appears like a crazy Dr Love over-emphasizing... In my mind, he is, after Auntie, the second godmother of the manga, but a more extreme and a really ridiculous one. But when you consider his solutions, they aren't different from Auntie's point of view : Sunako has to go out and sleep with Kyouhei.

The discussion about fetish/fantasy also made me think about the covers of PGE's chapters.
There aren't so many where Kyouhei is imprisoned or in chains : he is in chains in the cover of c04 (when Sunako wants to kill Kyouhei), imprisoned in the c08 (when Sunako is possessed), in chains again in the c12 (when Sunako remembers the kiss) and bound hand in the c65 (the second Valentine's Day chapter). I guess that it isn't so meaningful. But at least, the first three chapters are chapters where Kyouhei makes a kind of harassment to Sunako (the fake seduction's scene in his room in the c03, the kiss in the c08, and the memory of it in the c12).

I was more intrigued about the use of Sunako's nudity in the covers : in the c05 (her first party), in the c16 (the first attempt of the guys to seduce Sunako and awake her girl's side), in the c44 (when she refuses to give Kyouhei to her classmates in exchange of Hiroshi), in the c52 and c53 (the diamond's chapter and its consequences), and in the c59 (when she remembers that she was in love). In all those chapters, the personality of Sunako is exposed and «hangs in the balance». I found this coincidence surprising... The nudity is used in a psychological meaning. [And talking about perv' things, about the cover of c16, this association lips/flower, however I look at it, the connotations, at least in French, are all sexual...]

In the opposite, the nudity isn't used in the c35-c36 : in the c35, she appears in a chibi-form sat on Auntie's lap, and in the c36, she is all dressed, no skin appears :http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/hmr1_bucket/c35-c36-1.jpgIt shows the gap between the memory of Sunako that Auntie had and the current Sunako. If I want to over-analize again : I'll say the «sleeping together» thing had an effect opposed to the one Auntie wanted... It parts more Sunako from Kyouhei (and she rejects him in the c38...).
Then I was curious about the c75, the discussion after the kiss... And there is nothing really apparent : the pic is a bit blurred... Sunako wears a kimono and seems like a ghost... So, troubled ?

And just as a side-note about the ropes' use : Kyouhei uses ropes in the c03 to force Sunako to go to school, and in the c23 to force her to go to the swimming competition... And we have the inversion in the c77, Sunako uses ropes to force Kyouhei to clean the school... So, each time to force the other to overcome a fear/default...

[NB : I can't remember if it was Ginoru who did the comparison in another site between real pictures of actors and PGE's scenes ??? In particular about Kyouhei who was exactly in the same position, with the same clothes... I don't want to embarass but it was really great... I'd love to learn more about the sources of inspiration of the mangaka, and for me it shows that she never does a random draw...]

What Edenwest said about Sunako's clothes was really great !!!! Thank you !!!
I never really considered deeply the clothes' aspect before...
I can't quote all... And you well pointed the change in the c87... I'll just add little comments.
As you said, the most of time Sunako wears a sweat and jeans. She also appears a lot with a kimono, and sometimes she dresses herself as a guy (c33, she wears the military uniform; c42-c47, she is dressed as a worker, in the c59 to go to the mixer)...

After what you said, I was curious about the circonstamces when Sunako wears dresses with low-collar cuts and light/white colors... I apologize first because it will be a long enumeration... Before the c66, it only happens when she is somehow disguised (in the c13 for the photograph), or cursed : in the c17 (when she is hyptnotized and apparently going out with Kyouhei ), in the c27 (when she ate the mushrooms and has become a «normal girl».), or forced (in the c35 to sleep with Kyouhei). When she wears dark dresses with low-cut collars or with braces, she has been driven to : in the c37 when she is rapted with Kyouhei, and in the c56, when the guys give her the gothic dress... The exception is the c36 when she dresses herself the white dress to go to Auntie's party and tries to be a «lady».

After the c66, Sunako seems to more easily dress or let dress herself with those kind of clothes : in the c68 for the balroom contest, in the c71, to work in the host club, in the c79 for the wedding, in the c80 when she is walking with the prince, in the c91-92 for the Halloween party, in the c93 for Christmas... She appears more confident.

That’s why I wonder if the author doesn’t want to gradually and discreetly change our vision of Sunako and perhaps her image of herself too, after chapters 84-87.
I agree with that. I'll add that the others changed their vision of her too. I'll link it with the swimsuit arc. In the first swimsuit 's chapters (c15 and c23), she only appears in a chibi form, which is so contrasting with the sexy Sunako in bikini in the c88. The chibi form can shows at the same time her degree of confidence but also the others' vision. Remind Kyouhei laughing in the c59 : «You said sexy ? Her sexy?». Even if it's probably a forced laugh (he's really anxious that she may go to this mixer...), somehow, it translates a normal vision of Sunako...

I agree with what you said about the evolution of Kyouhei. If I link with what Ginoru said here :
Kyouhei since the kiss ep has been pushing forward certain situations and allowing others to happen with Sunako even if later it seems he backs, it's like he just gives a half step back to go a bit further in his next step, he has grown in confidence related to her and it's testing the waters to see where he can get [...] I think they know in what point they stand but are testing each other to know if the next step is safe and they are in no hurry.
I don't know if since the kiss' chapter, he has really grown in confidence towards Sunako. I mean from love's point of view. Yes, they spend a lot of time together but still as buddies, no ? (as ends the c93...). I'll say that he has more questions about himself (c86-c87) and he shows more his worries about her (c79, c90, c91, c95) : for me, it's like he is standing in the corner, watching over her. But in the opposite, the end of c97 does give this feeling of confidence... So, I'm pretty curious about the upcoming chapter...

And I also wanted to talk about the comparison between Kyouhei and Ranmaru...
I don’t think that is a coincidence… Kyohei and Ranmaru are two interesting characters when compared… They look quite alike (the mangaka needed to change their hairstyle for clearly differentiate them). Ranmaru is for me the antithesis of Kyohei (see their clothes: frilly vs casual), what he could have been if he weren’t a women hater.
For me, it's not a coincidence either... For me, they are opposite types but also close... Aa you said, at the beginning, their figures were really alike... And as I said once joking, Kyouhei and Ranmaru are the real «love killers». Actually they have the same problem : they were both running away from love, but they were in opposite ways.

Plus, those two characters are linked in a few chapters in the manga.

- In the c37, when Kyouhei has been rapted, he exchanges clothes with Ranmaru to go to his home... If I over-analize again this event from Oedipus' complex' point of view : Kyouhei has been dressed as an idolized dark prince in the c37, translating the fetish love of his fans. He doesn't want to return home like that. And in the c38, when he wears Ranmaru's clothes, he is supposed to be dressed as a seductive guy/man. But the seduction towards her mother fails and he has to leave his house... It fails also towards Sunako.

- In the c57, Kyouhei and Ranmaru appear close, sleeping together in the roof of school.

- In the c64, Kyouhei exchanges his personality with Ranmaru's one... As I said once, the mangaka was playing with the character of Kyouhei making him playing different roles (c69, the perfect gentleman, c77, the perfect domestic man) and here, Kyouhei is the perfect host... But it's pretty ironic because Ranmaru's behavior is reactivated in Kyouhei's mind each time something reminds him his money's problems... showing that Ranmaru is just a kind of gigolo (well mentionned in the c98). And Sunako doesn't accept more this kind of Kyouhei.

I mentionned Sunako's reactions because she also appears connected to Ranmaru, who can appear as the first «rival» of Kyouhei. Sunako has been also exposed to Ranmaru's radiance :

- In the c05, Ranmaru tries to kiss her when he's putting make up on her, and Yuki stops him.

- I don't count the c08 where Sunako is possessed and first interested in harassing Ranmaru before Kyouhei attracts her attention...

- In the c16, when the guys try to awake her girl's side, Ranmaru is the first who goes out with her. And it ironically fails : Sunako sends out a strange aura and Ranmaru is chased by «his girls»... lol... Then she goes out with Kyouhei.

- In the c41 when he is doubting about Tamao, he tries again to kiss her. Immediately, Sunako has a nosebleed. And after, he goes to her bedroom at night and automatically, Sunako hits him by reflex.
Her reactions are pretty different. When you consider each kiss Kyouhei has given to Sunako, her reaction occurs after he did. She doesn't react before. As she trusts or is comfortable with him. It's not the case with Ranmaru : when it's him who does a «love's move», she doesn't get caught. And I find the c64 meaningful...
So, I agree with what Ginoru said about the different behaviors of Sunako towards the guys and girls. Well said !!!
And really thank you for all the informations you're giving us about the drama !! :bow:

About what Edenwest said about Sunako and Kyouhei's behavior's here :
Thus, she’s anxious about labels reminding of love, dates, kisses, holding hands and so. Getting put into the real thing seems for her less damageable than the world characterizing it[...] Meanwhile, Kyohei doesn’t worry about characterizing the situations he’s in: he cares about the fun that he feels.

I totally agree with that. And I explain it by the difference in their experiences. Since she was rejected, Sunako suppressed herself as a girl, she built a vision of the world that gives her an acceptable place. So labels are pretty important for her. In the opposite Kyouhei is victim of all the labels girls give him which deny who he is. So, the only thing that matters he's how he really feels.

Just a last comment about what Ginoru said about the translations :
I remember i wanted to tell you to be carefull when you use the first chapters translations as reference for what character or other said since between the english editions (Usa/British) and the scanlations there are differences.
Yes... Thank you... And it's so unsatisfying for me because I'll never get all the meaning of PGE... So, I wanted to ask about this page of c01 where all the problem is already exposed (I saw the Spanish translation which is similar but the French edition is really different...). Can we trust it ??
http://media4.onemanga.com/mangas/00000164/00000001/20.jpg

It's all... I apologize... It's pretty long, probably repeating... I've been turning this over in my head during the week and hadn't time to write... Returning back to work is so hard.... I had the urge to write, but I'm afraid it lost its spontaneity...

[chibi-s]

Slightly OT ... are any of you guys guys?
Its my brother's birthday and all I can think to get him is some early vols of Wallflower. But it seems most fans of PGE are girls. So are you a guy?


No guys then? Well too late, I ordered vols 1 & 2 from amazon. I wonder what he will make of that. SIL might like them if he doesn't. :)

[edenwest]

Hi, PGE chat buddies!!!:woo hoo:


First of all, a big thanks to HMR1 for these very motivating comments about Kyohei and Ranmaru! And to Ginoru for the hints about the relationships between the characters, especially what you said about Takenaga... truly interesting... It would be usefull to do a systematic analysis of the relationships between the housemates and particularly of their similarities and differences… They seem to be only part of the gang but in fact each of them have a role in their team…

About the problem of translation in the first chapters, I was disillusioned ... well, particularly about the scene HMR1 mentioned, the French version is definitely the good one I think… It corresponds with the screen and is much more precise… I didn’t compare before…:(

About HMR1’s analysis of the covers before chapters, I found the idea very interesting!!! Before reading what you wrote, I preferred to let them apart, considering that they weren’t part of the story… You proved I was wrong, thanks a lot!!!!

The discussion about fetish/fantasy also made me think about the covers of PGE's chapters.
There aren't so many where Kyouhei is imprisoned or in chains : he is in chains in the cover of c04 (when Sunako wants to kill Kyouhei), imprisoned in the c08 (when Sunako is possessed), in chains again in the c12 (when Sunako remembers the kiss) and bound hand in the c65 (the second Valentine's Day chapter). I guess that it isn't so meaningful. But at least, the first three chapters are chapters where Kyouhei makes a kind of harassment to Sunako (the fake seduction's scene in his room in the c03, the kiss in the c08, and the memory of it in the c12).

I was more intrigued about the use of Sunako's nudity in the covers : in the c05 (her first party), in the c16 (the first attempt of the guys to seduce Sunako and awake her girl's side), in the c44 (when she refuses to give Kyouhei to her classmates in exchange of Hiroshi), in the c52 and c53 (the diamond's chapter and its consequences), and in the c59 (when she remembers that she was in love). In all those chapters, the personality of Sunako is exposed and «hangs in the balance». I found this coincidence surprising... The nudity is used in a psychological meaning. [And talking about perv' things, about the cover of c16, this association lips/flower, however I look at it, the connotations, at least in French, are all sexual...]

In the opposite, the nudity isn't used in the c35-c36 : in the c35, she appears in a chibi-form sat on Auntie's lap, and in the c36, she is all dressed, no skin appears :http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/hmr1_bucket/c35-c36-1.jpgIt shows the gap between the memory of Sunako that Auntie had and the current Sunako. If I want to over-analize again : I'll say the «sleeping together» thing had an effect opposed to the one Auntie wanted... It parts more Sunako from Kyouhei (and she rejects him in the c38...).
Then I was curious about the c75, the discussion after the kiss... And there is nothing really apparent : the pic is a bit blurred... Sunako wears a kimono and seems like a ghost... So, troubled ?

Well, I’ll say that the covers aren’t totally a component of the chapter but by showing us a particular vision of the story, they can be a real presentation of the part they’re introducing. They are obviously connected to it in different possible ways.

1) Showing beforehand the development of the story

about Kyohei being bound:
chapter 4: as you said, Kyohei in chains… announcing his rapt. Besides, the SM idea behind is hinting that he will be considered as a love slave…
chapter 8: ghost chapter… Kyohei, partially naked, in jail, wearing a fetish black leather necklace with a buckle (in French, it’s called “dog necklace/ collar” even for a human… don’t know in English, but that’s revealing). Indeed, he will be a perverted ghost’s prisoner and doll, thus the allusion to jail and to sex… but Sunako is somewhat also prisoner of the ghost…
Connected to chapter 12, he wears the same collar, this time with chains. His clothes are torn, he’s crying tears of blood… a gothic and SM very aesthetical picture. The chained Kyohei is pretty stylized here and implicitly connected to the idea of being tortured by Sunako, the ‘Violent Stormy Girl’. That resumes pretty well PGE universe: he’s in chains and struggling, the torture behind reminds of the tower; his torn clothes can remind of the shirt he wears in the matchmaking date… Almost exactly the same representation is used in the Goth Lolies fantasies and also appears in the title of chapter 80.
So, here in chapter 12, the boundaries mean at the same time sex (a kiss is much more sexual in Japan than in our western cultures) and revenge. The cover is dramatizing a reaction that happens quite late after the event and thus is no more waited…
Besides, the following scene is the dream about the witch and the knight sharing a kiss: could then the stylization of the cover be possibly a fantasy by Sunako??? Anyway we can notice a progression in the restrained Kyohei in covers: first, he’s truly chained by the host, then, imprisoned by the ghost, at last, chained by Sunako in a more sexual way…
chapter 65: his hands are bounded, he’s forced to eat chocolate, his pants are unzipped… like in the story he will be prisoner in the wooden house, forced to eat Valentine’s gifts and undressed… whereas in chapter 20, Kyohei is a fighter in the ‘Valentine’s Day Battle’.


about Sunako being in the nude:

chapter 16, as you said, that’s the first time they really try to awake her woman side and the picture is clearly SM : there are many underlying ideas, like the nudity, revealing, as you said again, a psychological vulnerability. She’s bonded by an ‘outfit’ composed by leathers belt… a masochist outfit, so here, implicitly, the guys are forcing her to take a more sexual path than she wants (proportionality : the more asexual she is, the more sexualized her virtual representation will be…). The bondage shows the idea of sex and the feminine part behind it (Aunty’s plan for the party and the guys executing it… and Kyohei’s role, of course) and as the same time have a meaning of her being strained, because here she accepts the simulation of dates and is passive in their hands. We can see another element for this interpretation: the rose covering her mouth: it has a love connotation (but I’m not sure for the lips! Maybe…), and a SM signification, because she becomes mute while bonded…

Chapter 44: ‘Test of True Love’… she’s naked and crying; that’s a love chapter. It let us know that she will be fragile, hurt in her feelings and will need to be comforted.

The diamond chapters: in chapter 52, she’s naked in a similar pose than at night in Kyohei’s bed (arching a little bit her waist, her hair hiding her chest). She’s surrounded by gems and wears some jewels… that’s of course showing beforehand the night scene, when she’s naked wearing the diamond. In chapter 53, she’s wearing some black, very sexy lingerie, whose ribbons are unbounded, at the top and the bottom. She’s seen as the erotic queen, but it’s quite ironic, because in this chapter where the nudity is the main problem, she’s not naked in the cover! Moreover, the untangled strings are a substitute for the bondage, insisting in the sexual meaning… In fact these two covers show each time an external vision: the first one is symbolically what Kyohei sees when he wakes up; the second is the point of view of every other man at school; it subtly insinuates that Kyohei’s vision is a real one, where the other is a fantasy. Kyohei is indeed the only one who isn’t attracted by Sunako’s impudicity: he hides her (Donkey Skin!!), and only reacts as a man with the real girl, with the memory of her being naked for him alone and when tenderly taking her home in his arms, once again without witnesses.

Chapter 59: Sunako is still naked, surrounded by roses and thorns, leading to an old door with ancient metallic ornaments, the ‘Memory’s Door’. The background is black. The roses, symbol for love, cover her left breast, her heart; the thorns obviously mean the pain consecutive to love… the picture has a clear signification: a painful love memory is hidden behind the closed door, while Sunako stays in the darkness. But this representation becomes recurrent in the chapter, as the door slowly opens and the unwanted memory comes back. She sinks more and more in a depressed night, refusing the future (she wants to take sleeping pills, to stay sleeping in an endless night, in death) until this night is enlightened: the moon watching in the garden is a response to the depressed darkness and to the roses with thorns (we don’t see them here, but there are real roses in the garden). Kyohei initiates the change, saying the words which save her: “you’re fine right here”, on top of him, before he almost kisses her. Afterwards, she thinks “it is ok if I don’t fall in love. It is ok if I don’t go back to that time. Things are ok as they are”, looking at the full moon. There is certainly a bit more light in her night. Here, she interprets Kyohei’s words as she will do with “love is an illusion”, she twists their meaning, taking them out of their original love context, but their depth and their force still remain, comforting her. Behind the lines, with theses words breaking the spell she has cast herself, another door is opening (I’m overanalyzing? I can’t help but think about Kyohei opening the door of her room at the very beginning).

All these examples are a kind of preview of the following story, sometimes very simply, sometimes in a more complex way, giving some hints for an interpretation of the chapter.

2) teasing the reader’s expectations

Chapter 3: the chapter including the shower incident has… Kyohei and Takenaga in cover!!!
Chapter 9: Kyohei wearing an open yukata… a major hot springs cliché!

Opening of chapter 50… here again I find the translation a bit problematic… Sunako is troubled because of something that had happen, that she has done in relation with “him”, and she knows it’s too late… We are supposed to think that she has done this regretted something with Kyohei… and that this something could be quite naughty (“too late”…) but in fact she has wasted all their money for giving a husband skeleton to Josephine! That’s enlightening of the evolution of her vision of darkness (there can be love in it) and she ends really doing something with Kyohei : working with him…

Chapter 31 : Sunako wearing an almost opened kimono (but her chest is hidden), her bun having probably fallen down, while the chapter concerns Takenaga and Noi! Well, the kimono reminds Takenaga’s traditional character, but what is really hinted here is a proximity with Kyohei’s and her story. Everybody (in school) think Oda and Noi-chi are a couple, they’ve already shared a kiss, but deny their relationship in front of others… Then, Noi begins to think she’s not good enough for him, a man who’s so beautiful (he has quite a success in school, even with guys, like Kyohei!), and he’s absolutely refuting being in love with her… so typical of Kyohei/Sunako!!! Noi looks like her when she’s crying (white eyes, ethereal dramatic pose, flying hair): she thinks she has been rejected when Takenaga turns down a confession (made by another girl)… that’s a rewriting of the ‘ugly girl’ incident…
Yuki and Ranmaru push him forwards (like they do with Kyohei, currently in the hospital), Takenaga cries and shouts “Takano, Come back…! You’re the only one who would understand my feelings”, because they are close; because, like him, the woman hater Kyohei doesn’t want a girlfriend; but mostly because they are in the same situation! Takenaga is tempted by the darkness, like Sunako… but also like Kyohei was at some point when arriving in the mansion (see, the closeness of Sunako behind the black curtains of her room, watching the light outside in chapter 5… and Kyohei in almost exactly the same pose in chapter 23, looking at the hostile outside world, full of fangirls…).
Next, in the garden, Noi says angrily to Sunako “maybe you like Oda too!!”… she’s overacting like Sunako did when she was rejected… and she has asked the same thing, in the garden, to Sunako in chapter 3 : “Oh… Sunako, you like Takano…”
The whole thing is a tease: our most official couple is put in a situation where they finally admit their feelings. “She’s mine!” is what we want to hear from Takenaga, and mostly from Kyohei about Sunako (see later, in chapter 62 “if Sunako-chan gets into trouble… you can back her up with the ‘she’s my woman’ revelation!”)!!! And his reaction is to laugh and to tease Takenaga!!!!!!

Chapter 26… Kyohei’s and Sunako’s date! She’s wearing a dress with printed cherries (=spring, love) embracing him by the neck… That’s definitely a teasing, their date isn’t romantic!!! But, that’s also a subtle allusion to another moment, in the beginning of the seduction scene, when he’s embracing her… and this idea is used again in the Pheromone Bomb chapter; both times, he holds her in front of a window… That is to say a made-up image (Kyohei isn’t totally himself in either cases) viewed by us. The cherry-Sunako here is the same cliché, this time reversed: what we all want to see in “The Picture of Love”, showed to us (the cover is a kind of window, a preview for the chapter)… So, a trick!!!

Chapter 32: “Queen of Horror Competition”. Kyohei is seen from above, taking off his shirt. There’s an allusion to sex (later, he will take it off the same way in the seduction scene), but the chapter opens with a dream. He’s woken by long hair caressing his face, but, when he tries to make it/the person go away, his fingers get sticky: he’s surrounded by rotten corpses. He interprets this by his fear of Sunako’s items… but, this way, we can say he has dreamed of her, because darkness characterizes her. So, in fact, he has dreamed that she (dark being having long hair) made him a visit at night, in his bed… and that has afraid him (like he will froze in reality in the diamond chapter and will be shocked when awakening near a random girl in chapter 84). There is therefore a double trick here: at first, seeing the long hair touching Kyohei’s face, we think of Sunako. But it’s a dream, and the ‘girl’ is a zombie… then, the implicit meaning of the dream makes the first impression still valid, along with the zombie arc involving Kyohei-Sunako’s moments (game and movie in their dates, game at home), a half-dead, half-alive creature, mixing two incompatible worlds…
Moreover, in the chapter, we are informed that Granny was married with a man afraid of her collection, like Yuki is… But, if the horror-loving young girl here is Sunako, the man who was afraid in the beginning was Kyohei. He is close to her in the competition, he defends her from Granny when she changes her mind: “There’s no other way. Besides, I’ve lost. I’ll give up.” Granny and her husband are another couple with a person who belongs to darkness and the other no. The insistence on Yuki is just masking Kyohei here…

Here again, two ways of tricking us: in a quite simple one, not clearly showing what will happen, or twisting it, playing once more time with possible readings… which lead us to the third part…

3) dialoguing with the reader

…the most complex of the covers show someway also a preview, but quite modified, without really tricking us, because the meaning still correspond to the chapter. We need to identity the various elements condensed in the picture. The covers here become a synthesis for an interpretation far larger than one single chapter.

chapter 5 : it’s the first time we can see Sunako naked and beautiful… here, let’s open a quick parenthesis concerning the shower incident in chapter 3. We didn’t really see her naked here, her representation is far less sexual than Kyohei’s… We could see her washing the dishes in a chibi-form; then, she was taking her clothes off, but if we could see her entirely and wearing a bra, she was only showing her back. When fully naked, she was comical, her chest was covered by ducks… she was not a woman, she was really a kid: not only one duck but so many of them! She greatly contrasted with Kyohei, who was like her showing his back, but in a pretty suggestive pose. His butt was symbolically hidden by her widen eyes (for presenting a quite decent picture for teenagers but also showing where she looked!). Both appeared viewed from their back side, in parallel, the ducks dramatically falling… The magaka focused in their faces, with Kyohei’s surprised expression and Sunako’s shocked eyes… Afterwards, when Sunako was thinking, she’s once more comically presented: her bottom is this time hidden by “back side”… In another words, she’s systematically placed is corresponding poses with Kyohei but she’s absolutely not sexy! Then, the cover from chapter 5 is amending the situation: she’s finally naked and a woman, her feminine image is restored and we can appreciate her real potential. At the same time, this picture of Sunako in the nude shows again her vulnerability and her path toward womanhood: that’s the first chapter where she accepts a little step toward beauty (the party) and love (conversation with Kyohei holding John and them “looking good together” as a couple for the first time).

Chapter 56: a chibi-Sunako happily wearing a black dress in a gothic cove and jail. That announces in one picture the decorated house, the successful dressing and Sunako’s first happy reaction with the whole thing… But, once again, she holds a skull… and John is a reassuring personification of Kyohei, like in the “he isn’t the only guy” talk and in the roof after the first kiss… John also is the comforting object the guys give her after the seduction scene. So, the ‘Dream: Mutual Love’ here isn’t only when she’s saved by the prince Kyohei, when the witch could become a princess; her dream is once again to make them (=various skulls), and mostly him, come to the darkness, to insert him reassuringly in her world, in a jail, like a doll as you previously remarked. In the chapter appear then the two opposed dreams: the cover with what could be a mental image of her attracting him in the darkness and what really happen in the story, him dragging her out of her tent, out of her fantasies…
A similar idea in chapter 70 : Sunako is hugging a skull, then curled up and again surrounded by skulls in the page used as title page. Her thoughts are ironically an announcement: “an eternal yet short life together… goodbye… my marble padding…my stone-built home… goodbye”. Of course, she will have to leave her sanctuary, but that daily routine will be replace by another “life together” with Kyohei! And the skull is what Kyohei brings in their apartment for making her more at ease while: once again, there is a link between John and him.

Chapter 43 : Girl’s bravo; Sunako wears a corseted dress. One element reminds of Kyohei: the black necklace with a buckle that he wears in various covers… And later, he has a shirt with the same excessively long sleeves in their date. In this chapter, Noi and Tamao want to become pretty for their beloved one but they are afraid of being rejected. Between the lines, Sunako is also associated with him in the cover, she has to be beautiful like him and for him, but, with the example of her friends, the fear of rejection remains… The problem is: is it her vision or what the girls want to see when they drag her along?
We can connect it with chapter 67 where he wears another corseted dress, a French one (…Marie-Antoinette-like). She looks like a real lady, but some elements are significant. Her hair is curled, like when Kyohei saves her from falling, like when he saves her in the witch dress and like it will be in the following dance chapter. Here too, Kyohei is implicitly mentioned. Moreover, she has pearls in her hair, like she has in the cover of the diamond chapter… and she’s eating takoyaki, which she will really eat in the chapter when realizing she can have omake if she’s pretty. It is also a link because cooking takoyaki is his task in the school festival. In the story, he’s the only one with Noi who doesn’t really want, at this moment, to make her beautiful because of omake: when the guys are shocked that the kakoyaki make her realize the advantages of being pretty, he laughs and call them “dumb”… in this chapter, he definitely ‘does things his way’, being here for fun… but also stopping to show solidarity with the guys, their low tricks and probably with their stereotypical idea of beauty. He wants all along to imitate Noi, who angrily says “what do you know about what other people see?” At the end the three of them leave while happily eating: Noi with her girly friendship, Kyohei with his teasing for fun, they like her the way she is… The cover is an allusion to the change in Kyohei’s behaviour I think.

Chapter 75… mmhmmmm… she’s blurred, ok, showing how she’s frantically reacting in the chapter… But is she wearing a kimono??? For me, she’s naked (her shoulders and collarbone are revealed), covered by a white cloth/ sheet… isn’t it thus an allusion to the nudism incident (hysterical, naked, covered with a sheet by Kyohei in the AV) which was a consequence of another embarrassing event? The cover accentuates the connection between the two hysterical yet different reactions (she overreacts and forgets; she somehow accepts what happened but attenuates it with the “love is an illusion” thing and keeps on serving carrots… therefore proving that she remembers). (The blurred Sunako could also be a reminiscence of the ghostly blurred image of her, reminding Edvard Munch’s painting, ‘The Scream’, when Kyohei tried to seduce her… Could be an allusion to the arc concerning Sunako’s reactions… first kiss, hysterical, ghostly but not blurred Sunako, covered in a black cloak – seduction scene, blurred Sunako – naked scene, covered in white by a creature of light – real kiss, here, blurred, naked, covered in white, in the cover! Not sure…)

Woooooo! Hope that wasn’t too annoying… and that everything was clear enough…errr…

About what Ginoru said before :
Ah Yes! The parody factor, for me the manga is a big critic to several aspects of japanese culture, popular culture; like stereothypes from what a shoujo has to be, a shoujo doesn't need to always be boys meets girl girl meets boy fall in love accepted or unrequited and has to fight against the world and circumstances to triumph, you can be your worst enemy; kawaii is not always where people want to seek it (i hate Hello Kitty for example); not always pretty and cared means possitive; characters with brain and real preocupations are cool too, there are more than one way to see life and that is correct too, not everyone has to be an exemplar kid and grow up to be a salaryman/woman, underground cultures (lolitas, Visuals, Jrock) are also culture and don't need to be looked down etc...

That’s right!!!! We can see how the magaka twists social clichés!
For the peculiar looks, there is a gradation with the guys’ usual outfits. Kyohei’s is very casual and basic; Takenaga is elegant but still quite classic, a little formal; Yuki likes fashion; Ranmaru is overly fashionable, still beautiful, but quite ridiculous… And they often cosplay in a smart way but at the same time almost crossdressing (Ranmaru wearing stockings, Kyohei high boots with heels)… They have an extreme idol look, it seems… Meanwhile, Sunako also offers nuances: shapeless and stained old clothes at first, then casual clothes along with her uniform; she has a baggy dress at the club (first change of clothes); she wears elegant clothes then forced but prefers more peculiar ones (black witch dress, boy clothes)… opposed to the Goth Lolies’ look. She has an extreme look too, but in the other end of the scale…
The kawai is also mocked: Yuki seems a very cute girl and so is Sunako flying with joy when she discovers where Hiroshi is in chapter 44.
Besides, the usual career life is questioned too: Kyohei has no special abilities. He’s not a good student, he’s good at sport but doesn’t seem to want to participate. He hasn’t any regular part-time job, and seems to be only gifted with manual labour… In a normal social cliché, he would be a low worker. But, with his looks, he could be a model and earn lots of money: he doesn’t want to become rich because of his beauty. He can be at the two extreme ends of social standards: very high, famous and admired or low, in the working class, doing a painful job. In chapter 69, Auntie comments “at this pace, he’ll pass through society on only his looks and his voice” and cannot prove him that “a man’s worth is determined by his money and prestige”…
Sunako’s somewhat showing the same nuance: she has good grades but doesn’t like to study. She relies only on her memory. She did some part-time jobs, but only exceptionally: in the video shop, at the club, preparing flowers. At the same time, she knows how to run a house and spare money, when hanging out with friends: she’s presented as a future good housewife… but she sucks at school in the girl club activities, except for cooking. She’s certainly not a normal girl….

And, last, not least, about what Chibi-S said sometime ago...

The other thing that bothers me, which I haven't seen in PGE, is boys that slam the flats of their hands against the wall they have just pushed their girlfriend against. That's really common but I haven't seen in it PGE. The boys, including Kyohei are just too civilised. Perhaps that's too hard to parody or comment on.


Well, actually, it happened! Chapter 4, in the fake (and first) seduction scene… Kyohei slams his right hand against the wall of his room while holding her tied wrists with his left one; then, taking her chin, huskily tells her, coming closer to her face “say… what should we play first?” Well, the rope thing is spicing a little the cliché, but still… perhaps the most typical scene ever!!!
A parody beautifully auto-parodied in chapter 36: against the door of the room they’re trapped in… left hand against the wall, once against coming closer, holding her head and hair with his right hand and almost kissing her. We can notice the difference between the two episodes: in the former, Sunako first come to Kyohei (for killing him, of course), he counterattacks by using Ranmaru’s seducing clichés. In the second part, following a lot of common (and hilarious) lines, “the night is still young” and so, it is a spontaneous move from Kyohei after hearing her say “I’ve given up being a woman”… he wants to prove her she’s wrong, by extraordinarily treating her like a woman… that is to say by acting like a man towards her. In the first one, Sunako is shocked and ends frozen; Kyohei is highly amused. Then, Sunako gives us one of the best examples of her ambivalence towards him: the chapter begins with her point of view “Is this my punishment??... My punishment for lying to my aunt…an aunt who…(then, written smaller, just above their heads) loves me more than anything…”. Clearly, there is a mixing; 1) rational Sunako-ish thoughts: she feels guilty for continuously trying to trick the landlady with the guys and the dazzling creature coming too close is a torture, because she can’t stand it and would melt. 2) undeclared impulsive reaction, her thoughts are slowing (the interruptions, the sentences written smaller), she gives in the moment and sees the whole scene in a kind of daze, like in a dream, imagining herself in a draped dress, showing her shoulders, neck and back, with a necklace, a very feminine outfit, without a doubt traducing how she feels at the moment. He’s still bare-chested, like he really is and that don’t seem to bother her. They’re enveloped by ribbons… it’s the epitome of enchantment for Sunako, because the same image is used in chapter 65, when she dreams about chocolates, except she’s naked. Meanwhile (I previously mention it somewhere I think) the expression in Kyohei’s face when Aunty irrupts is also revealing: shock and disappointment.
This scene is once more implicitly referred to in the ‘real kiss’ incident: here again, the event begins with a clear allusion to the shoujo universe, with the many cliché scenes instigated by Noi. Then, when saving her from the broken glass, he pushes her against the floor. He’s on top of her, left arm around her shoulders and head, the flat of his right hand placed against the floor for support. Then in the infirmary (another usual cliché: how many lovey-dovey or kinky things happened in shoujo world in the infirmary where the nurse never stays too long!), he takes her and us by surprise: not long overused eyes-drowning-in-eyes moment (in fact, he was staring at her) nor expecting pause like they are accustomed to, he kisses her directly, without touching her elsewhere… contrasting with the earlier episodes.
So… number one rule in PGE: don’t let a single cliché unused! Number two: never think Kyohei could ever be too civilised for not doing something stupid, especially like that… The poor guy has even been represented as a cave-man in chapter 27! ;)


I’m really sorry for committing such a horribly long post… Anyway, thanks for reading!

[HMR1]

Hi !!!
Sorry for the belate reply. I had to overwork those last days, and as we say in French, with my «metro, boulot, dodo» routine, I hadn't so much spare time... *deep sigh*
But, first of all, a BIG THANK YOU for your thoughts !!! As always your posts are so deep and impressive... I'm so so happy to have you around !!! Keep to us your sharp analysis !!

I totally agree with the three functions you identified for the covers.

I'll try to continue a little our chat about the covers, and I'll leave the wrists' and Takenaga's topics for another time (there's a lot to say about Takenaga !!). Plus, there's an upcoming chapter that – for sure ! - is going to monopolize our attention for a bit... *sly*

And for this chat, I thought that having a global view of the 98 current chapters' covers could be interesting...
And I have to apologize for the poor quality of the pics...

So, here it goes...
Covers of v01-v05
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/hmr1_bucket/PGEcv1.jpg
Covers of v06-v10
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/hmr1_bucket/PGEcv2.jpg
Covers of v011-v15
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/hmr1_bucket/PGEcv3.jpg
Covers of v16-v20
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/hmr1_bucket/PGEcv4.jpg
Covers of v21-v24
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/hmr1_bucket/PGEcv5.jpg

It isn't so easy to comment all the covers at the same time.
Then, I suggest to talk about a few aspects :
- the evolution of the cover's «format»
- the chapters that form units/ series
- the recurrent topics
- the teasing aspect and the focalization's problem

Sooo... Let's begin !


1) the evolution of the cover's «format»

First, we can consider that the covers have a symbolic meaning concerning the characterization or evolution of Sunako and other characters. And here, I think that the evolution of the covers' «format» is meaningful concerning Sunako and her life with the others.

If you consider all the chapters, you can see an evolution from «single» covers (I mean here just a single page in «portrait» format) to «double» covers with two options :
- a pic over two pages in a landscape format,
- or two different pages in portrait format forming a diptych. (There are also covers over three pages associating portrait and landscape formats.)

At the same time, this change matches with another evolution in the draw from pics that represent the characters posing in a nonexistent or symbolic scenery to pics that represent movements/actions, multiple characters in more and more realistic sceneries...

When you look where is the caesura, it corresponds to the chapter 70 when Auntie has work done in the mansion, and Sunako decides to live by herself. For me, it's really symbolic. This chapter signals the outbreak of the outside's world in Sunako's life. An outbreak accepted...

The cover of the c70 in itself is interesting. It's a diptych over three pages with a dark pic showing a depressed and huddled up Sunako because of the dark world she is loosing (she has to move) and a representation of her with the guys in their Halloween outfit among pumpkins. In this last pic, she is near Kyouhei in the right side, when the guys are together in the left side (which illustrates with whom each one is going to live in this chapter). And just passing by, you can see that Ranmaru and Kyouhei, who are sat at opposite ends of the pic, are represented in an antinomic way : Ranmaru, the white angel (ah, ah, ah... but in someway, he is the savior of the guys as they are going to live with him) ; Kyouhei, a dark angel whose wings are reduced to a bones' frame (fitting the likes of Sunako...). So, the diptych symbolizes the choice : to live alone in the dark world, or to live with the others/ Kyouhei, others that can accept/ share her likes (illustrated by the Halloween theme)...


Before the chapter 70, the «double» covers are pretty rare and the most of time, they correspond to a pic in landscape format.

- They are used for the opening chapter of v02 and v03 and represent the four guys (with a dark Sunako in the background for v02; and with Noi in the v03), and also for the opening chapter of v10 : it's the c39 when Kyouhei has left the mansion, and it represents Kyouhei with a cloak (= the prince) leaving the guys and Sunako. Here we have a chibi Sunako in the foreground dressed as a geisha. And we can see the rupture between the v02 and the v10. Kyouhei has left and he did because of Sunako.

- The double covers are also used for :* The c17 which is an important chapter : it's the first attempt of the guys to seduce Sunako. In the cover, the guys are wearing suggestive outfits and surrounding a chibi Sunako who is about to have a nosebleed. Here Kyouhei and Ranmaru are both in the left side. They are the most «glamour/ seductive» of the four by their pose : Kyouhei in the foreground with a dark boa and Ranmaru in the background with a white one.
* The c24 when Sunako goes to Hokkaido to meet her childhood's friend who has a broken heart. This cover is interesting... You have the portrait of Sunako on the right side with a scarf over her head (her protective donkey skin !!), and in the left side, multiple chibi forms of Sunako with different outfits referring to the previous or next chapters (a yukata, the swimming suit, the school uniform, etc..., - outfits she had to wear because of the guys' will). It shows the alternative between remaining secure and alone or having relationships with others. I link it with the words Sunako says to her friend : [I]«If you don't cry then you can like him». And it also suggests a question : what reflection the character has to give to please to the others ? (in the chapter, Sunako's friend does everything to please to her boyfriend)...
* The c30 about the hospital's ghost which is represented naked and lying down. It's the first love story of a dark being wandering to communicate his feelings to his lover and to achieve peace.
* The c54 which represents Sunako alone in the dark. In this chapter, Sunako has used all the money to have John for Josephine and she can't handle the household budget. Then she has to work with Kyouhei in the video store.


Before the c70, there are only two examples of diptychs :

- the c45, where appears the fan of Sunako. The first page shows the bullying scene, and the second, a gloomy Sunako with a dissected organ's jaw in her hands. It describes the context : Sunako's arriving during the bullying scene. But somehow, it also suggests several alternatives : first, guys who don't treat well another living being versus Sunako who is cautious about a dead thing. Secondly, two possible «friends» for Sunako : a poor bullied guy or a dissected organ.
- the c66 : in the first pic, in a dark background the guys received the Auntie's invitation to the party and are worried about what to do, while the other pic shows the chibi Sunako covered of pimples, - because she ate too much chocolate - , holding a tray. The diptych illustrates the gap between the «dream» of Auntie which achievement is a nightmare for the guys and the mere «reality» of Sunako...


After the c70, the «double» covers become the rule and the single covers the exception. The most of time, the «double» covers are diptychs, used to suggest :

- oppositions :* in the c72, the opposition between the peaceful but lonely life of Takenaga in his house and the disturbing presence of Sunako
* in the c73, the dreamy and enchanting vision of the Loli sisters versus their true self.
* In the c80, between the lonely Kyouhei, imprisoned in the dark, and the prince and Sunako walking outside happily.
* In the c91, the sad story of the vampire girl versus the deception of Sunako reading it.

- confrontations :* in the c77, between the guys and Kyouhei who is trying to avoid the cleaning chores.
* in the c84 between the predators (the four bad guys who are represented in a black form) and the targets (Kyouhei through Sunako, the disheveled victim)
* in the c92, between the vampire and Kyouhei/Sunako. The first pic shows the back of Sunako and Kyouhei watching the vampire and vice-versa in the second pic.
* in the c98 between Auntie and Sebastian : Auntie angry in the first pic and closing the door / Sebastian left alone in the second pic.

- to precise the context :* in the c81 to explain the upcoming of the Mori's festival and Noi's anger,
* in the c82, about the New Year
* in the c83 to announce the arrival of Mashiko
* in the c85 : they are broke and Sunako can't cook anything expensive, (so the «informed» reader won't be tricked by the events...)
* in the c94 : to settle the behavior of Ranmaru
* in the c95 : Sunako has already hung the prince (first pic) and is now strangling Kyouhei

What is typical of those double covers are the presence of dialogues and the exchange of looks. Those chapters brings to light the interaction with the others.

So, the single covers decrease since c70 (11 covers out of 30), and this kind of cover with the characters posing in a nonexistent or symbolic scenery makes a rupture in the movement created by the «double» ones... I can't believe this effect is totally random because nearly all of those single covers concern chapters where important events happen between Kyouhei and Sunako. The famous "expected moments" where we'd like time to stop ! Those chapters signal a new step in their relationship and their perception of it.
But the covers' pics don't really reveal them...* the c71, Sunako in a chibi form with the outfit she wears to work in the host club,
* the c74, it's a representation of the «shoujo scene» dreamt by Noi. Here the looks are important : in the background, Noi, behind a tree, is looking the two, Sunako' behind a hedge is looking Kyouhei, and in the foreground Kyouhei is self-centered looking the cat... In some way, it's also symbolic of the chapter's end : the «expected» move, (from Noi's point of view),- the kiss -, will come from Kyouhei...
* the c84 (Kyouhei winking and hiding his mouth, - which suggests at the same time the expected omake by the readers and the trick in the chapter...
* the c87, Kyouhei is hugging Sunako. I guess that the cover is one of the reasons that made us so disappointed with the end of the chapter... So promising and so deceiving...
* the c88, Sunako is represented alone, in a chibi form with a swimsuit covering all her body playing happily as a kid in the sand. Which contrasts so much with the final scene with Kyouhei.
* the c90, that concern the appearance of a love's rival for Kyouhei. This cover is an exception in the symbolic representation. Even if Sunako is shown in a chibi form, here the scenery is realistic : it shows the guy opening the door of the Sunako's haven in the school...
* the c93, Kyouhei is dressed as Santa Claus, leaning in the chimney, it settles the context, but doesn't let imagine the final seduction's scene. At the same time, we can wonder why Kyouhei and not Sunako on the cover ? Kyouhei is Santa Claus, but it's Sunako who wants to give him something. In other hand, he is disguised, so, not himself, and it suggests the trick (Sunako only acts because she mistakes him for Sandy Claus...)
* the c95, the chibis Kyouhei and Sunako shaking their fist because of the exams. It settles the mood : Kyouhei and Sunako supporting each other...

The last single covers which don't concern Sunako and Kyouhei that I didn't mention are :
- the c78 representing Ranmaru and the princess. The scenery can be realistic : the chapter takes place in the forest. But it's also pretty symbolic of the path they still have to go. Tamao appears shy and Ranmaru sticks his hand, as to hide our sight. He doesn't want to be seen (= because he's still insecure about what he feels)
- the c89 concerning Noi. And here the representation mixes a dreamy love scene in the background and an enthusiastic Noi in the foreground determined to make this dream come true.



2) the chapters' series/ units

Well, it's not very clear but we can consider that some chapters' covers form series. At last, I can see some until the c70.

First, some volumes show a thematic unit.

For example, the covers of v01 show how gradually Kyouhei becomes more important...
- in the c01's one, the four guys are represented at the same level, each one in an insert in a corner, while Sunako is in the middle of the pic seen from behind
- in the c02, Kyouhei is represented in the foreground holding scissors. He is wearing an outstanding shirt contrasting with the school's uniform of the guys in the background.
- the c03 represents Kyouhei and Takenaga
- in the c04, Kyouhei is shown alone and in chains : he is the supposed target and enemy.

This evolution can illustrate the perception of Sunako and how she differentiates Kyouhei from the other guys. Kyouhei and Takenaga are the ones who have the biggest impact on her : Kyouhei because he is the most dazzling and Takenaga because he is like a big brother who cares about the others and says what has to be done.
Somehow it can explain why they are represented together in the c03 because it's Takenaga that orders to her to take care of the sick Kyouhei.

The allusion of the fringe's cut in the cover of c02 is also interesting because it's Takenaga and not Kyouhei who wants her to cut her fringe. He tries several times before giving up : «I'm going to part your fringe, okay?» «At at least, cut the fringe...» «After you're well. We can cut your fringe off...» «Sunako, if you feel more comfortable with you hairstyle, then don't force yourself to cut it». Kyouhei is the one who threatens to cut her fringe if she doesn't say the truth (the reason why she wants to hide her face). So what Kyouhei cuts is the unsaid... And somehow in the end, she cuts her hair herself because of him. So, he is the responsible one...

We can also consider that we have a symbolic unit since the special chapter until the c21 : it's the tale's illustration with the Little Red Riding (c19), the apparently harmless wolf (c20) the wolf eating the Little Red (c21 : Kyouhei has in his mouth the pic of Sunako and it's the chapter where he is confronted to her father that thinks they are going out. And his coat can evoke the wolf's fur).


Secondly, we can see series by the character represented in the cover : and then, it's the case for Kyouhei and Sunako, which illustrates the focusing of the manga on those two characters.

- If we live aside the opening chapters' covers of v02 and v03, until the c15, we have a series of 8 covers of Kyouhei where he appears alone, interrupted by 2 covers of Sunako (c05, c13 : where the personality of Sunako is exposed). The series ends with the matchmeeting episode in the c16 (Sunako's cover) and c17 (the four guys represented), and in the c18 we have Ranmaru with a pumpkin. This series correspond to chapters where the impact of Kyouhei on Sunako increases...

- From c43 until c53 we have a series of Sunako's covers (minus c45 which is the diptych with her fan, and c46, representing Sunako and Kyouhei lovey-dovey...). In those chapters, Sunako is confronted herself or through the girls (c42, c48) to the question of friendship/relationships. And we have several contrasts :* between her outfit (with long sleeves that covers her hands) and waiting pose in the c43 and her nudity in the c52-c53 (the diamond's chapters)
* between her sadness and gloominess in the c44 (she is crying) and c45, and her apparent confidence in the c52-c53.
* between the dark covers of c48-c50 (and this darkness is deceiving because in those chapters, she has to leave her haven : in the c48, she tags along the guys for the summer trip; in the c49, she makes school'sfriends, and in the c50 she has to work with Kyouhei), the grey one of the c51 (where she is confronted to Auntie) and the light ones of c52-c53.

In the chapters I didn't mention, since c22 until the c42, and between the c54 and c70, we have mixed series of portraits of both Sunako and Kyouhei :
- we have all the confrontation between Kyouhei and Sunako during the c34@c39, where the covers alternate between Kyouhei and Sunako minus in the c39's one which , - as I said previously -, represents Kyouhei leaving Sunako and the guys.
- from c54 to c70, the covers of Kyouhei and Sunako alternate with some interruptions (c55 Yuki ; c60 Yuki's siblings ; c61, Takenaga), and they appear together in the c56 and c68.


The covers with the other characters alone are pretty rare :

- 5 for Ranmaru (c18, c22, c33, c41, c94) + 2 special chapters + 1 cover with Kyouhei (c26) and 1 with the princess (c78), but that's not forcefully chapters about him as the c18, the c22 or the c26. * If I continue my comparison between Ranmaru and Kyouhei, in the c22, they appear connected. Ranmaru is in the cover when the chapter is about Kyouhei. And Ranmaru appears half-naked. The nudity hasn't really the same symbolic meaning as for Sunako's covers. But in this chapter, Ranmaru is the first who tries to divert the girls by offering himself to them.
* the association of Kyouhei and Ranmaru in the cover of c26 is also interesting : in this chapter, Kyouhei and Ranmaru are those who cause the biggest upheaval in the swimming pool because of the girls but they are also the two who give two different solutions to Sunako : Kyouhei tries to force her to swim, Ranmaru suggests to her to wear something else than a swimsuit...
* The c33, the cherry's tree chapter represents on the cover Ranmaru in the same military uniform than Sunako... We can wonder why ? He's the first depressed by the gloomy mood, he is the first bait (the hanging corps... as some prince in the c97) to catch Sunako, and he is the one who resolves to bury Kyouhei...

- 3 for Takenaga (c40, c61 and c70) + the cover with Kyouhei (c02). I previously explained the meaning I saw about this cover. And it's also interesting because since the beginning the manga they are associated : Takenaga and Kyouhei are the best friends even if their friendship can appear curious between the most distrustful character and the most impassive one who was raised alone and wasn't used to deal with other people (as we learn in the c21)

- 2 for Noi (c81, c89) + 1 with Sunako (c25)
- 1 for Auntie (c29) + 1 cover with Sunako (c32) + 1 cover with Ranmaru (c76) and 1 cover with Sebastian (c98)
- 1 for Yuki (c55) + 1 special chapter cover
- 1 for Mashiko (c82)



3) The recurrent topics

As I said, the two most recurrent topics are the portraits of Sunako and Kyouhei. You did pretty great comments about some of those covers !!! Thank you again !

We can also add :- the representation of the guys with Sunako (c01, c06, c17, c39, c70 and c82) : we can see the evolution between a Sunako not aware/considering the guys in the c01, just following behind the guys in the c06, the guys trying to seduce her in the c17, then celebrating Halloween (c70) and the New Year (c82). The representation changes from symbolism (c17, c39, c70) to realism (c82), - that can show that now they really live together.

- the representation of Sunako and Kyouhei together (c47, c58, c68, c87, c95 and, and... the upcoming c99!). Here it's interesting because we have an opposition between the first ones which are attractive but somehow fake pics of them as a couple (in the c47, c58, c68 they were forced to be together even if they ended appreciating the time they spent ; the c87 is just an illusion !), and the c95 where they are shown in a chibi form but which is the most true : they were two otakus freely playing games together and after, studying...

We can also identify sub-topics.- the nudity as the metaphore of their personality exposed.
- the disguise and/or crossdressing concerning the guys but also Sunako (c13, c23, c27, c56, c70)
- somehow linked to the previous topic, the representation of Sunako as a lady (c67, c68, c71, c80)

- the darkness which is not only used for Sunako but also for Kyouhei (when Kyouhei is somehow «involved» with Sunako as in the c04, c08, c12, c80, c97)
- the skulls/dolls : first with the association skeleton/ Kyouhei in the c12, and after linked to Sunako (c56, c70, c91)
- the prison, chains, ropes used for Kyouhei (c04, c08, c12, c65, c80) but Sunako is also a happy and chibi prisoner in the c56 (it's the chapter of the gothic dress)

- the mirror (c49, c61) and painting (c67) for Sunako
- the glasses : well it's not obvious on the covers. They appear only in a few chapters : c12, c14, c95 concerning Kyouhei and c23, c63, c95 concerning Sunako. But the glasses' theme appear more often in the chapters : they are something that hides (as in the c11, c75 for Kyouhei, in the c63 for the guys while walking in Shinjuku's streets, in the c80 and the c97 for the prince). In another hand, they symbolized at the same time the mind's loss of the characters (c12, c95), and its opposite : a clear vision of things (c54 for Sunako, c97 for the prince)... I'm probably influenced by this saying : "the eyes are the mirror of the soul" and in this manga, the eyes are so beautiful... So the glasses pretty interest me...



4) Teasing aspect and focalization

About the «teasing» aspect, I totally agree with you that often the mangaka teases us and makes us to expect something «great» by the cover she drew, - something really different from what the chapter settles. But at the same time she creates a trick, she also suggests another meaning. You well describe this. And, for example :
- in the cover of c31, that's a big trick as the chapter doesn't concern Sunako, but at the same time, the fact that Sunako is on the cover is also meaningful as she is the witness of the true feelings of Takenaga (who comes to her room) and Noi (who complains to her), and then the witness of their misunderstanding...
- in the c40, why is Takenaga on the cover ?? He's seing the abnormal effort of Sunako and Kyouhei to participate in the games... And he is the first who wonders : "Why are those two so serious about winning?"

I'll say that we could complete this teasing aspect with the analysis of chapters/ volumes' ends, - which are ironical and often divert a tipical shoujo scene. I'll just illustrate with a few examples...
- in the c05, the end of the chapter and volume is the same scene than the cover of the c01. But when Sunako was seen by the back because she was the unknown character in the c01, in the c05, she turns her back to the guys because she is not interested by them, and is self-centered : «Darkness is the best place».
- The end of the c09 diverts the typical scene of the lovers under a starry sky by the murder, when the cover was an attractive Kyouhei with his yukata opened.
- The end of c14 also diverts two typical shoujo moments. Kyouhei has saved Sunako, then Sunako saves Kyouhei (=inversion). Kyouhei hugs Sunako, then she has a nosebleed, and both faint. No «lovely» and happy end for the saviors in this «dramatic» chapter... that we could expect (didn't Kyouhei remind in the end of the c10, that they already kissed?) Then, Kyouhei is carried by Takenaga on his back while Ranmaru (!) carries Sunako and... Hiroshi !!! So, the "love's mood/scene" is totally destroyed...
- in the end of the c18, Sunako is locked in her coffin, Ranmaru and Takenaga knocking to make her get out. Kyouhei (which has done so much in this chapter) doesn't care and just talk about how angry he is. He can't rely on Sunako... (which is a cruel wink to the cover of c14 : Kyouhei eating rice, and in this chapter, Sunako «fought» against heat, nearly dying to make dishes for them)...
- in the end of the c58 : yes, they are wet and together but they have fainted in the grass !!!
- And as I said, obviously, the end of c87 is pretty cruel considering its cover...

The teasing aspect drive us to wonder about the focalization... Whose point of view is supposed to represent the cover ?
When you look the beginning of the chapters, some start from Sunako's point of view (I mean with an internal focalization like in the c03, c08, c10, c12, c17, etc...), but a lot start from guys' point of view who are chatting in the living room/ receiving news from Auntie, etc.... Sunako isn't around...

And this contributes to the confusion when you consider the covers : some seem to match the point of view of Sunako (as I tried to show for the v01), but another ones match our own point of view or the guys' one (as you have shown for the c46)/ Noi's one (c74). We have different windows opened to this little theatre... Which gives to the mangaka a lot of opportunities to tease us : what are you really seeing ?? But you already talked pretty well about this "mise en abîme"... ; )


Arrr... I'll stop here... That's already an «over-too long» post... I hope it won't be too much boring and that it will make sense... *sweat*

[chibi-s]

My brother was very polite. He said the two volumes I gave him looked "interesting and funny". Well that's true. He's going to take the and put them on his "curious things from Asia shelf" at work. He lectures graphic design. :)

[edenwest]

Hi!!! First of all, Chibi-s, I hope your brother will enjoy reading them... they're curious, indeed!!!:happydance:

For HMR1: thanks for that really great post (and for your nice comments)!!! So much to think about... :yay:

Well, I’ll just add some random/secondary remarks about what you said (and only because I like to discuss, because what you said was pretty complete...)

First, about the change in the cover forms, I totally agree!!! the three pages cover of chapter 70, which you very interestingly noted, are very symbolic!
That chapter indeed shows one of the many changes in the story…
- in the beginning, the fringe matter has opened the arc of the challenges: the relation with the others was based on confrontation, at school against the bullies (chapter 2) or the other classes (school festival), in love against the boss or a sadist boyfriend (for Auntie), and of course against Kyohei (the exams, the Queen of Horror Competition)…
- After that, the whole seduction/ rejection/ return at home thing, there was still competition, but Sunako had gained more value, she could fight Kyohei as an equal (the difference in the way her classmates saw her during the school competition is significant): it was the time of friendship, beginning feelings (rescuing Hiroshi-kun, the guys trying to put them together, … in chapter 56, Sunako doubting and wondering “I was the only one who thought we were closest friends!” )
- And, after chapter 70-71, the biggest change takes indeed place: they’re closer, they truly live together, they’re a family, a household… and her relation with Kyohei seems to slightly move on. The difference between the “portrait” covers and those chapters which begin directly in medias res (with the title inserted in a quite significant picture of the action, as you pointed out) could illustrate how they act more natural, relaxed with Sunako and her with them…
By the way, the triple page cover in chapter 70 is also noteworthy because it links the doubts Sunako has about leaving her sanctuary and so, being forced to live normally with the others (in the hotel) with the Halloween theme and thus with the end of the chapter and the very important talk she has with Kyohei. So, they’re all together in the Halloween picture because, before their poor little celebration, Kyohei (by coming to stay with her and asking her about her feeling towards them being housemates) has made her realize that living all together is fun for her too… Once again, his words have the deepest impact in her mind.


About chapter 39, I agree! Moreover, I believe the dramatization of Kyohei’s leaving, with them dressed in traditional clothing is a peculiar reference… a Japanese movie, or a story, I don’t know, but the scenery is too precise to be meaningless…

Chapter 30, I thought the guy on the cover was Kyohei (because the ghost’s hair is longer, I believe), and with the chibi nurse Sunako, it was an introduction to the chapter –Kyohei in the hospital, Sunako dressed in a uniform to sneak into corpses room- but also a little joke for the usual cliché of the girl nursing her beloved one (like in the beginning)…

]the c87, Kyouhei is hugging Sunako. I guess that the cover is one of the reasons that made us so disappointed with the end of the chapter… So promising and so deceiving…

yes! But it’s also a reference to the end of the previous chapter: they are in the exact same position, so that directly links Kyohei’s realization and what happened afterwards and, in this chapter, Kyohei’s doubts about it and thus what will happen after his second and deeper realization… And, of course, that’s a trick!!!


] The c33, the cherry's tree chapter represents on the cover Ranmaru in the same soldier uniform than Sunako... We can wonder why ? He's the first depressed by the gloomy mood, he is the first bait (the hanging corps... as some prince in the c97) to catch Sunako, and he is the one who resolves to bury Kyouhei...

I don’t think they wear the same uniform: it seems that Ranmaru has a uniform from the Showa era, and I wonder if that period is not used as a traditional historic scenery for romantic stories, which could quite fit our master of love… In fact, the same era appear in other mangas involved in (dramatic) love stories: in Detective Conan, chapter 541, Sonoko talks about a drama using that kind of topic, with a reference to a tree; in Ranma ½, that’s even more obvious : there’s a chapter where Ranma in his girl version is convinced to impersonate a young girl in love with a officer who promised to meet her when the sakura (I think) would blossom many years before… mmm, I’d like to read the book they talk about in this chapter in PGE, I wonder if it’s a similar story…
For Sunako, well, that’s a little disturbing. I’m sorry, but I believe she wears a nazi uniform, most precisely Hitler’s one: tie and shirt underneath and the eagle in the hat is clearly visible. Still, no ideological meaning I think: it’s another example of her horror collection (death, mass murder, torture), a quite scary item… brrrr…


] (the association of Kyouhei and Ranmaru in the cover of c26 is interesting : in this chapter, Kyouhei and Ranmaru are those who cause the biggest upheaval in the swimming pool because of the girls but they are also the two who give two different solutions to Sunako : Kyouhei tries to force her to swim, Ranmaru suggests to her to wear something else than a swimsuit...)

Mmmm, Ranmaru is not responsible for the change of swimsuit, unlike in the beach chapter: the sexy bikini is far more his style! It was the kind Yuki who suggested her not to wear it if it really made her uneasy… Still, the cover of chapter 26 is interesting: we can connect it with the covers of chapter 3 (Kyohei and Takenaga) and chapter 6 (a double page wich can serve as a presentation of the story, the four guys adopting a sexy attitude, Kyohei first, and Sunako, dark and blurred, behind them). In the second part of the hot springs story, they open suggestively their yukata in the same way.
In fact, they really seem to pose for a picture: the theme of photograph is usual in the manga, at school (bullying Sunako), with the photographer (they take the same kind of pose when cosplaying as vampires in that chapter), their pictures being sold in Harajuku…
Thus, these covers show their friendship but their sexy poses (them wearing jewellery, sensual attitudes, Yuki blowing a kiss, Kyohei’s tongue appearing, them touching their lips) are also a reference to their status of being idolized by fangirls… The mangaka uses the covers to reinforce the legend of their famous beauty and puts us, readers, in the place of the fangirls watching them. (overanalyzing?)



Speaking of pictures, they make the correlation between chapters 21 and 22, the first one about Sunako’s past, the latter about the guys’… I’ll connect that about what you said :

] We can also consider that we have a symbolic unit since the special chapter until the c21 : it's the tale's illustration with the Little Red Riding (c19), the apparently harmless wolf (c20) the wolf eating the Little Red (c21 : Kyouhei has in his mouth the pic of Sunako and it's the chapter where he is confronted to her father that thinks they are going out).


That’s pretty interesting, there seems indeed to have an arc concerning the Little Red Riding Hood in the covers, initiated by the chibi Sunako then the real one… but is Kyohei really a “harmless wolf” in chapter 20? He’s preparing himself to fight in the “Valentine Day Battle”, that is to say for not being eaten himself by the fangirls (the second Valentine chapter contains the same idea: the girls shove in their mouths chocolates while undressing them… making them eat before “eating” them…). And about him eating her picture in chapter 21, that’s right, he poses as her lover in front of her father… but, at the same time, he’s wearing a hood with fur, mixing the feminine cloth with an animal hint, a Little Red Ridding Hood element with a wolf one... And that’s exactly the outfit he wears in Hokkaido. In fact, there’s here a structure of chapters closely related, the chapter about her father opening the part about their past: we have a chapter about Sunako (parents), two about her housemates (the guys and Kyohei), and another one about her childhood (her friend Yuki). And, in this last chapter, we know that the outfit that Kyohei wears is really a girl cloth. For me, that’s very ambiguous: Sunako’s depicted as a Little Red Ridding Hood, but, in reality, in the covers and in the story, that’s Kyohei who’s afraid of the wolves and who wears a hood. Like her, he’s also a recalcitrant Little Red, but ready to fight, as the same time as he’s hinted as a potential wolf for Sunako…

And that’s very enlightening, because he has been clearly more wolfish before! In the cover of chapter 14, he’s beautiful and sexy, dark, unsafe and has two specific items. A stink, reference to his fight with the boss and his gang, and a fur, from a fox or wolf… here he’s the real wolf, fascinating and dangerous.
This change is revealing of Kyohei’s first evolution: in the beginning there was only an external vision of him, the dangerous seduction (when talking with Sunako, we all know that he’s the best example of the « others guys » he mentions; he’s wild : he wears a leopard shirt in chapter 2; he’s the enemy, as you pointed out…) : he’s the temptation for Sunako, the first who calls her a girl when coming after her (« a girl like you »), he’s then sexualized in her mind -his nudity, the fake seduction scene when she attempts to murder him, the kiss… in the pool, she watches him pulling back his hair (and he makes the same move at the beach, after the failed confession)…
Then, during the matchmaking disaster (c16-17), they get along and talk in the cellar: the two chapter of the matchmaking are symbolically bordered by two moments where Kyohei makes something for her (the cleaned pool in c15; cleaning the house and making the wire fence for the belated Halloween party in c18). We can say that for Sunako takes a new start. For example, she got bullied at school by the girls, then she got bullied again by the Loli Sisters in c19… two examples of useless effort toward beauty, but the Loli Sisters are closer to her (gothic and they come to admire her). And in that new start, Kyohei begins to have a more fragile : he’s not longer plainly a wolf… Until the next evolution with the seduction scene and the meeting with his family…



Moreover the comparison between the cover from chapter 25, Noi hugging a surprised Sunako, and chapter 35, Auntie holding a baby Sunako, shows the similarities between the two characters. Noi is somehow a young version of the landlady, pretty, quite outgoing, and totally obsessed with her vision of the perfect love…
And these pictures revel some confidence Sunako feels with the two of them, because there’s only Kyohei who touch her like that: before sending her flying in the swimming pool in the mansion, in front of her father letting him believe that they are lovers. Not everyone cares for her the way her matchmaking Aunt and girl friend (clumsily) do and she doesn’t allow either everyone to come so close.

And, at last, about Auntie, I thought a bit more about what you said some time ago …

(Maybe she felt something that those two didn't realize yet?)
And still in the c36, while she is drinking because of the failure with Sunako, when she is told: «You know, you shouldn't switch guys so often», she replies : «But all good men are already dead». So, she doesn't seem to believe in her chances to find a true love as the one she had. In the opposite, she seems convinced that Kyouhei is the good one for Sunako. And it's only in the c66, that she changes her mind when she decides to make Sunako meet the Polchok Kingdom crown's prince : «Forgive me Kyouhei. I know you like Sunako, but I definitely think that jewels are a girl's best friend» As it's a disaster, in the c69, she wants to train Kyouhei instead. A new failure.
So, new switch : in the c79, she lies about looking for bread, to introduce the prince.
And in the c91, she focuses in another interest of Sunako by inviting them to the Halloween's party. She makes the same mistake as the guys in the c56, when they try to turn her into a lady by giving her the kind of gothic dress she'd like. Kyouhei predicted that will be an «epic fail», and then, Auntie defies him : «If that's so, then you look after her, OK.» So, as we say in French, «elle court deux lièvres à la fois», - she is hunting two rabbits at once. And I wonder if for her, the princes' alternative is not only a second best solution until Kyouhei decides himself to make a move. (Just think about the argument she gave to Kyouhei about the jewels, it matches her exuberant behavior but it can't hold water when we're talking about Sunako...


In her personality, there are two specific elements thus : she cannot understand Sunako’s taste for darkness… nor for men obviously! I wonder by the way if she knows about the guy who called her niece ugly… And she prefers Kyohei indeed, because together they remind her of her husband (the adventurous hint in their relationship)… I think she cares for him and wants him to be fine (she brought him home like a wild lost puppy). In fact, before Sunako, she somewhat tried to change the guys by taking them in her mansion… so asking them to transform Sunako is not innocent. She just tries harder with Kyohei, no longer just wanting to socialize him as she did at first with her four tenants, but wanting him to be worth her lady-to-be niece.
Nevertheless, even though she doesn’t understand her, we can notice that the landlady tries to adapt her own criteria to Sunako’s: presenting her bachelors who match her own tastes for luxury and royalties slowly becomes trying to marry her with a dark prince.
So we can say that she tries to understand and to be close to Sunako (the housewife chapter; « my aunt… who loves me more than anything »). So, she tries so hard to interfere in her niece’s love life, choosing a good boyfriend, changing him for the best, giving her opportunities to have great love memories (in bed, mostly…) and celebrating it with her (bringing sake –or champagne?- and ‘"seki-han", the rice eaten for celebrations and for weddings). She’s afraid to be let behind. Sunako, like she involuntarily does for Kyohei, reveals the vulnerability in this strong personality.
By the way, why didn’t the guys ever admit to Auntie that Kyohei and Sunako are a fake couple? Sunako already chose to tell her she wasn’t even trying to be a lady, so why forgetting about the lie concerning her love life? It’s quite logical that Auntie still believe they are in love: when realizing how shocked her niece was, she heard Kyohei saying “are you that afraid of being alone with me?” but she saw them about to kiss. Then Kyohei comes at the club where she is drinking and defends Sunako (“If she doesn’t want to go, just get over it. – I know. – It’s okay, leave her to her housework”). And he ends catching her in the stairs and complimenting her, a huge thing for a woman hater like him. Then, every time, something or someone seems to show they are meant to be together: Kyohei saving her from a marriage, the vampire acknowledging their love… She may overanalyze their behaviour (like in chapter 69), but there still are many very mystifying hints!
So even if the guys don’t actively lie anymore, why don’t they end her blissful illusion about the not so sweet lovers? Ok, we can think that the guys keep their mouths shut because they are afraid of her wrath, but actually she accepted the worst part of the truth (Sunako doesn’t want to change) and replacing her niece’s ideal boyfriend couldn’t be a big deal for her, as you pointed out…
In fact, the guys are as eager as the landlady to make them get closer… They know that she’s a very creative ally, like about sharing the hotel room… They say this was Oba-chan’s idea, but how did she know where they were staying? Why hadn’t she given them instructions before Kyohei offers them (in spite of himself) an occasion of blackmail by leaving the hotel in search of Sunako? Our poor Kyohei announces that he has found the runaway Sunako, Ranmaru tells him: “You know, Oba-chan told us to prepare the best room for you. Of course, you’ll be sharing it with Sunako-chan… That’s what she said but… Oba-chan also said… what the two of you should do in that room…” He’s obviously enjoying it!! And they tease the “newly-wed” when trying to persuade him by using food (what a low blow!) But, instead of accepting the offer, like Sunako with her dark items and horror movies, he resists! The landlady is clearly a pretext, they’re somehow using the occasions given by her… So who is manipulating who? The landlady isn’t the only one who wants to pull the strings…
It’s somewhat confusing when you think of it: Sunako and Kyohei have both a stubborn, strong personality. They’re the best fighters, quite independent too. Still, everybody is systematically plotting for their sake (making her go out of her solitude, making them realize their feelings), trying to help them. And at that game, it’s surprisingly not the guys who know them so well or the scheming Aunty, but the most irrational of them all, Noi, who win the prize and made them kiss… although she doesn’t know it!


Well, I hope that wasn't too annoying and pointless... I can't wait for reading your analysis about Takenaga... and more about the glasses... :<3:
Thanks for reading!

[HMR1]

Well, I hope that wasn't too annoying and pointless...

That's never annoying to me ! : D
I did like what you said about Kyouhei being also a Little Red Riding and your comparison between Noi and Auntie was pretty interesting...

And I'm pretty sorry because I'll have to postpone my promised post ... I'm over busy at work, and can't peacefully write my thoughts... : sobs :
So, I'll just add sparse little comments, because I love this discussion and it's so hard to leave it in suspens...

First, I have to mention that I did an omission about the covers. You have some that are nearly dyptichs over three pages associating a page in portrait format and a page in landscape format. I say nearly because those first pages don't include the title of the chapter as in the c70.
We have those kind of covers for the c10, c24 and c30. It's like a preview who settles part of the context...
For example, in the preview of c24, you see a chibi Sunako receiving mail. And in a dark background we see her surprised by the letter she is reading. The same technique is used in the c30 for the ghost story : you have in the first page Sunako crying in the dark about her lost torture house and then the real cover with Kyouhei laying down and surrounded by those chibi nurses of Sunako... ( Ah, ah, ah... What horrible thoughts I'm having...)

It doesn't change the meaning of the c24's cover : in the opposite, we have a contrast between the protective darkness of this first page and the light of the second one where the exposed Sunako needs a donkey skin...
But it can change a bit the perception of the covers' series. If we consider that it's a kind of cover over three pages, then we have some previous ones before the c70...
At the same time, the chapters which are concerned, are always meaningful. In the c10, Sunako and Kyouhei are together in the dark hearing about the murder (and the chapter ends with a dead-fainted Sunako because of the kiss evocation...). In the c24, it's for the outbreak of Sunako's childhood friend about a love's problem (it's not the first time that Sunako is going in a trip. But it's the first time for a dear friend, and about a so personal and dangerous matter...), and in the c30, for the ghost story... So, when I'll got some spare time, I'll check this kind of covers...


About the c26,Mmmm, Ranmaru is not responsible for the change of swimsuit, unlike in the beach chapter: the sexy bikini is far more his style! It was the kind Yuki who suggested her not to wear it if it really made her uneasy…

Errrrrr... Yes, it's Yuki who finds what she can wear... I was saying that Ranmaru points an opposite alternative to Kyouhei's one. When Kyouhei is forcing her : "Are you considered a girl ? If you continue like this, I'll change you myself" (ah, ah, ah, ah...), Ranmaru allows her to give up : "If you really hate the swimsuit, you don't have to wear that!".
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000164/00000026/28.jpg
But I'm certainly overanalizing here...

About the cover of c30, I guess you're right... It might be Kyouhei and not the ghost. I didn't recognize him but I think you're right because this cover is inspired of a picture of Kiyoharu :
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/hmr1_bucket/Kiyoharu.jpg
That was also the case for the cover of c20. I saw the pic in a site, but couldn't find it again... (I think we would have a lot of good surprises checking the pics of this singer...)

About the c33,
I don’t think they wear the same uniform: it seems that Ranmaru has a uniform from the Showa era, and I wonder if that period is not used as a traditional historic scenery for romantic stories, which could quite fit our master of love… [...]
For Sunako, well, that’s a little disturbing. I’m sorry, but I believe she wears a nazi uniform, most precisely Hitler’s one: tie and shirt underneath and the eagle in the hat is clearly visible. Still, no ideological meaning I think: it’s another example of her horror collection (death, mass murder, torture), a quite scary item… brrrr…

Well, there are two uniforms that Sunako wears...
In the c04, I agree with you, it seems to be the nazi one :
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000164/00000004/26.jpg
I didn't think about the symbolic connotation before you pointed it... If I can use this expression, I'll say that she prepared herself as a destroying angel. The uniform expresses her determination and purpose (the question is : was it only for the kidnappers ??) At the same time, I wonder if the mangaka doesn't ironically play with the uniform's connotation when she puts those words in the Sunako's mouth : "This man is god's best creation. People like you have no right to even touch him" And then, she holds the chain saw : she's ready to exterminate...
It shows that Sunako's vision of world is extreme and can brainwash her... It settles a bit more who is our queen of horror (after the c02, she is good at fighting ; and the c03, she has a world's vision and can want to murder someone...) Here, only Kyouhei is able to stop her :"Stop messing around. Hurry". The contrast -between this frightening Sunako ready for a mass murder and Kyouhei who easily carries her- at the same time shows his "power" over her and is comical...

But in the c33, she wears a different uniform :
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000164/00000033/18.jpg
And I do believe that it's the same that Ranmaru's one in the cover :
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000164/00000033/01.jpg
And here, it's just the illustration of her likes as you said... So, the only thing it inspires to me is that there was really an undercurrent meaning in the chapter 04.

About the c87,
yes! But it’s also a reference to the end of the previous chapter: they are in the exact same position, so that directly links Kyohei’s realization and what happened afterwards and, in this chapter, Kyohei’s doubts about it and thus what will happen after his second and deeper realization… And, of course, that’s a trick!!!

Yes, you're right... And it's even more sarcastic...
The end of the chapter 86 was suggesting a mix of hope and heartbreak : Kyouhei's finally making a move but Sunako is dense as usual, hitting and leaving him in a pool of blood... You can see here the double wink of the mangaka :
- first, in reference to the cover : finally the victim is not Sunako but Kyouhei.
- secondly, by this inversion and deviation of the usual nosebleed' scene : here it's Kyouhei who seems aware of Sunako and who's nearly dying because of her...
But if we could have resentment towards Sunako in the c86, after the c87, our thin hope is definitely dead... Our two Little Red are still hopeless and riding !!!

I stop here with this optimistic thought !!!! ; )

[Ginoru]

Oh My XD posts are so long i think i need to answer by chapters LOL

Once again my contribution is going to be quite random, I am beginning to believe my teachers were totally right when they said I am quite unorganized XD

I'll answer in order, first HMR1


I really understand you, I have been very busy this latest weeks, I hope to catch up a little now :) but you girls are fast

The four guys for me represent stereotypes of typical guys and show that all have bad and good sides, but they are always at their best when balanced by their opposites(serious Takenaga with bad tempered Kyouhei / over the top Ranmaru with simple and sweet Yuki), and, if we add Sunako, confronted with the unexpected. They also have their effect on her; she is faced with all the main stereotypes of guys and through them learn to get over “men” in general to get to see the real persons. For me Ranmaru is like a puppet master wannaby, he is quite normal otherwise, a bit like Auntie as you say though Auntie is less normal XD I find interesting that all the characters are one way inside the house and another out of it.

About the covers, I am quite visual for those things (Art Historian, professional de-formation is not good :S ), I remember from the ones your mention c75 where she is “impersonating” a Japanese ghost, have you played play station’s “Fatal Frame”? Ghosts like her just appear to get revenge and kill XD Oh and I also think that the main covers repeating the characters constantly are also interesting, and the little chibi pages of “see you in next volume” too. But I’ll try to write some impressions on the bigger study of the covers:

You have to consider the mangaka’s confidence increase through the volumes as her drawing style gets depurated and she gets to know her characters better and better, as a factor in the development, she can play more freely with them.

You mention Kyouhei has left and he did because of Sunako. and I was thinking that that is important too, he only felt the need to go away with Sunako and his parents; Sunako really affects him and from very early in the story.

Also her phrase to Yuki-onna you also mention «If you don't cry then you can like him» made me think, that is her condition to the ones she loves to be happy, “if they don’t cry”, that applies to Yuki too; then does that mean that for her could be the other way around? Only when she cries for someone?... (she got close when Kyouhei went away after his parent's house events)

Eyes importance, very interesting, from the way they looked at each other’s at the beginning to as they do now, specially Kyouhei-Sunako; to look alikes like Kyouhei and the Prince (this last one I find pretty interesting to dig in)

The only problem I find with the magaka teasing us by promising something good in a cover is that we are so used to see the opposite happening that we may fall into expecting always the contrary and hopefully be surprised XD

About the point of view of the covers, I think that is less important than the fact they are used to distract and tease the reader :)


Yep it was me the one of the pics comparison between Kiyoharu-sama and Kyouhei, his “son”, I can share them again here if that is ok :) and you are right, there are a lot of visual surprises to find ;) About her sources I can add a bit too, I did small references thingy for another forum, if you want I can share :) you are very right saying she never does things without “something behind”

You asked me about the Spanish and English scanlations, I can’t answer about the Spanish one since I only read in English or Raw, sorry, I remember that the English version I read was very different from the one that is commonly seen in the scanlations and I think it was more accurate, a friend lent me her book, Del Rey edition (which I like since at the end of every book they provide clues about the chapters, characters, names etc used) a pity I did not scan Vol 1.; what does the French version say?; maybe if we can get a raw of that page and translate it again...I still remember how after reading the books it annoyed me that the scanlations used Takano all the time instead of Kyouhei’s name like in the original or Naie for Noi.

About the mangaka trying subtlety to change our view of Sunako I think that it’s obvious she does, the thing is, is she playing with us, with the guys, with all of us? Or is it that we see her different because we are seeing her with the guys eyes and they see her different now?

I mentioned the kiss as milestone, because for Kyouhei it was like an alarm call, but instead of freaking out as he would do with any other woman he reacted positively, he is not against the idea of been in love with her, be with her; or against those feelings he now knows he has even if he has tried to run away from them, but I think he didn’t manage and he is conscious of his feelings. I think she is unconsciously conscious that she has different feelings for him than she used to too, even when her feelings for him were always different to the other guys.

Yeah they spend a lot of time together, the mangaka has been focusing on them much much more (feels like things are going faster), but I don’t think it can be considered “as friends” any longer, even if they pretend to be just friends there is always something around them that changes things, they feel it but don’t mention it, like a new curio they are examining.

You got me curious about the new chapters! Even more because I need something to cure me from the drama XD (I am really seriously considering murdering the scriptwriter and a couple more)


I really think a comparison between the guys is a must, their behavior towards one another and Sunako’s towards each of them, their realtionships, it sure would be really interesting. I find especially interesting Sunako’s relation with Yuki, maybe the first bright one she got to consider as a friend (Kyouhei is another thing)

I think Ranmaru is like the reverse of Kyouhei, like the “dark side” of him, that’s why Sunako experiments on him to later face Kyouhei. But I wouldn’t link them (Kyouhei-Ranmaru)as characters, their links are more anecdotic than anything, Ranmaru is game for the mangaka to use when she cannot use the others. Seeing him as a “rival” for Kyouhei is funny because he is the first one Sunako discards as totally useless of the bunch.

You mention Kyouhei seduction of Sunako and Sunako’s acceptance of Kyouhei with other (Ranmaru) personality, for me those are just another way to show that when they are better together is when there is no pressure and are just themselves, he doesn’t need to seduce her and she doesn’t need to accept him, she is seduced when they talk normally or he tells her something important, and she has already accepted him, the real him, what she still needs to do is to get over him as representation of the bright ones; if no one were trying to make them be together they would probably be less wary about that between themselves XD

That’s true, Sunako has never rejected any kiss by Kyouhei and doesn’t react with violence after (and when she does it has a meaning), while she has like an automatic resort to kill any others who try, I think that the moment when she runs from the house at the very beginning and he runs to get her back, that moment has been very important and definitive for both, he has let a girl get inside him and she has seen a bright one as a human being for the first time in a long time, from that moment onwards they are already different from how they were before meeting and I think that also made their mutual trust grow.

[HMR1]

Thank you for all your comments ! :) I have to read them again...
For now, I'll just post this "short message"...

...for a cry from the heart... :o


If you want to share, please, please, please, feel free to do so !!!!
I remember some of those pics' comparisons, and they were so so great !!!!!! :D

NB : About the RAWS, I think I have them in some folder...
If it really doesn't bother you, then, when I'll find them, I'll send to you this page of volume 1...


* Thanks to Ginoru, now, HMR1 doesn't mind going to overwork... *
Happy ! Happy ! Happy ! ;)

[chibi-s]

I know this is slightly OT .. and you've probably all already realised this but, if you're at all tempted to watch the live action version of PGE, don't, it will only make you sad.

[edenwest]

Hi! Sorry for the belate reply!!! Thanks for sharing your thoughts!!! I’m impatient to see the pics of Kiyoharu and other sources… and to read analyses about them from both of you, HMR1 and Ginoru! :dancing:

well, I'll only add some quick and very random ideas...

I think Ranmaru is like the reverse of Kyouhei, like the “dark side” of him, that’s why Sunako experiments on him to later face Kyouhei. But I wouldn’t link them (Kyouhei-Ranmaru)as characters, their links are more anecdotic than anything, Ranmaru is game for the mangaka to use when she cannot use the others. Seeing him as a “rival” for Kyouhei is funny because he is the first one Sunako discards as totally useless of the bunch.



Mhmmm… don’t know : isn’t Kyohei the most useless of the bunch for Sunako? He’s the one she wants to avoid the most (she escapes from Ranmaru’s hotel because the luxury wasn’t bearable for her, not really because of them, but, in the apartment, she tries to make Kyohei leave…), the one she fights every now and then because he steals her green tea ice cream… the one she decides not to compare to Hiroshi-kun…
And, agreed, the comparison between the two can’t be generalized. More than anecdotic, I’d say it’s sporadic and underlying… as the comparison between the others: implicitly Takenaga and Kyohei (chapter 31), Kyohei and Yuki compared in family matter and attitude (Kyohei being strong and cool/ the cute Yuki defending him with an axe), Yuki and Ranmaru (chapter 55), and of course, each of them imitating the other in chapter 41. The whole manga is clearly a comparison between different attitudes in life and shows paths to accept who you are. Not only the guys, but every character obviously impersonate a peculiar way of being, the rebel refusing social links, the loner, the nice guys still immature, the womanizer, the asocial bookworm enclosed in his word, the cheerful popular girl... the goth loli, the ganguros, Sarasara-kun for example being people who try to change wrongly who they are, aiming for a fake beauty or a gloominess which can only be for him an illusion…
Each character is thus almost systematically compared with another, explicitly or not. The thing is that, for Kyohei and Ranmaru, the contrast is made with Sunako (and love) as reference: she trying to test her resistance to light by approaching Ranmaru (but she says Kyohei is brighter, he’s like the sun), Ranmaru trying to kiss her and to sneak into her room (that’s anecdotic, because he’s not interested in her in this way, he think she belongs to Kyohei)… while the reader can only whish it would be Kyohei… And because Sunako is concerned, we certainly focalized in that peculiar parallel…


And about the comments from HMR1 (for sometime ago) concerning the different uniforms...
About the c33,
Well, there are two uniforms that Sunako wears...
In the c04, I agree with you, it seems to be the nazi one :
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000164/00000004/26.jpg
I didn't think about the symbolic connotation before you pointed it... If I can use this expression, I'll say that she prepared herself as a destroying angel. The uniform expresses her determination and purpose (the question is : was it only for the kidnappers ??) At the same time, I wonder if the mangaka doesn't ironically play with the uniform's connotation when she puts those words in the Sunako's mouth : "This man is god's best creation. People like you have no right to even touch him" And then, she holds the chain saw : she's ready to exterminate...
It shows that Sunako's vision of world is extreme and can brainwash her... It settles a bit more who is our queen of horror (after the c02, she is good at fighting ; and the c03, she has a world's vision and can want to murder someone...) Here, only Kyouhei is able to stop her :"Stop messing around. Hurry". The contrast -between this frightening Sunako ready for a mass murder and Kyouhei who easily carries her- at the same time shows his "power" over her and is comical...

But in the c33, she wears a different uniform :
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000164/00000033/18.jpg
And I do believe that it's the same that Ranmaru's one in the cover :
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000164/00000033/01.jpg
And here, it's just the illustration of her likes as you said... So, the only thing it inspires to me is that there was really an undercurrent meaning in the chapter 04.


Ooooops! My bad! You’re right! I didn’t check the entire chapter and I only remembered the first uniform! And I like what you said about it!!!
By the way, I think Ranmaru still wears this second one in the last valentine chapter, when the guys imagine themselves as warriors. And so, we may consider this representation of him as a recurrent image: he’s the melancholic soldier, a romantic view of himself (like Kyohei sometimes sees himself as a ninja, just like Sunako). In chapter 33, this personification is associated with the title “Cherry Blossom”, resuming the underlying nostalgia and somehow tricking us (what a surprise, isn’t it?), because we would logically think the story is about a melancholic love… and we have Sunako searching for corpses and leading them to a cemetery !!!
Still, the nostalgia is present in this chapter : I dig a little bit in the literary reference... the book they talk about is a short story by Motojirō Kajii, Sakura No Ki No Shita Ni Wa ("Under the Cherry Trees", 1927) where the sakura viewing is associated to a death wish. The words Sunako says are actually the (very famous) first sentence:
" Dead bodies are buried under the cherry trees! You have to believe it. Otherwise, you couldn't possibly explain the beauty of the cherry blossoms. I was restless, lately, because I couldn't believe in this beauty. But I have now finally understood: dead bodies are buried under the cherry trees! You have to believe it. "
And we have a more subtle reference to the tone of this text (about a suicidal narrator) in the thoughts of the different characters speaking with the guys and darkening their mood: each of them is disgusted with his/her life… and another allusion with this uniform that Sunako wears (and Ranmaru in the cover), which belongs to the same era than the original story…
Therefore, our dear mangaka teases us and plays with two underlying connotations of sakura viewing... And we can somehow once again see an inversion with the second sakura story, the cat chapters: here, we have a vague suggestion of love, the quote about the corpse and the horror (imaging the skeletons out of their graves/ Kyohei like a zombie really coming out of the ground). In the recent chapters, we have again the quote and the horror (ghost stories), then love, again suggested (the confession, the test with the prince and Kyohei)… and Onsen-chan’s skeleton out of the grave, this time not as a horror element but as a love one (the cat is happy and in peace). The two parts are mixing different meaning: the love (in the background), the search of corpse and death (both times playing with possible deaths of Kyohei, buried alive, strangulated, killed with a sword… he really has a life full of danger!!), the reunion between close friends (both times they are all together, and the cat and his mistress can meet again). Each of those ideas can be traditionally implicated in cherry blossom viewing… And each time, the fantastic influences reality: the suicidal thoughts are affecting the three guys in a strange way, while the ghost possesses Sunako and takes control of her behaviour in the same way, the despair and loneliness (of the people and the cat) only bringing death (gloomy thoughts or attempted murders, thus death for oneself or for the others).

(I would really like to know more about Japanese culture, there are a lot of things we can’t notice because of our lake of familiarity with it!!!)



Last but not least, about the drama! I totally agree, the manga is far better, that’s obvious! Still, I found some interesting things when compared with the original story: they tried for example to use the fairy tale reference in a PGE way

-our chibi-Sunako is showed by the real Sunako wearing her cloak… She fully impersonated the Donkey-Skin aspect of the manga character
-she goes shopping with a basket… she seems at the same time to be a witch (in Snow White, for example) and a Black Little Red Ridding Hood… just like the manga Sunako…
-Kyohei eats a “poisoned” red apple: he’s Snow White.
But, the most fairy tale-ish episode, the mushroom one, is quite overdone… the princess Sunako is just creepy… in the manga, I found her more girlish but still interested in the well-being of her housemates; in the drama, she only seems more superficial. That’s strange, the same elements (the bad food, the embarrassing boxers) can convey a very different impression… And I don’t even want to talk about the kiss… brrrr… But that’s great to find our analyzes about the manga confirmed by the simpler story-telling of the drama…

Well, I hope that makes sense... I'm pretty tired! Thanks for reading!

[Ginoru]

I am really sorry i am taking so long to answer but I have been very busy and just when I was having some free time the Chile earthquake happened and was worried about my friends there, lucky they are all all right, but i am still living stick to teh tv and computer to talk to them mainly since they keep having echoes of even force 6. They tell me that that strenght is nothing for them but still worries me, probably because i live where there's no earthquakes.

I am just making a fast post, sorry.

HMR1

Happy my message helped you at work ^^

I am very very slow reading in japanese but you can send the page to me and i'll try doing it little by little :)

As you asked i am sharing Kyo"dad"

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c292/ramcibella/Japon%20-%20Manga%20-%20Anime%20-%20Doramas/Manga%20y%20Anime/Yamato%20Nadeshiko%20Sichi%20Henge/Dorama/Kyoharu/th_Kyo-Kyo.jpg (http://s29.photobucket.com/albums/c292/ramcibella/Japon%20-%20Manga%20-%20Anime%20-%20Doramas/Manga%20y%20Anime/Yamato%20Nadeshiko%20Sichi%20Henge/Dorama/Kyoharu/?action=view&current=Kyo-Kyo.jpg)http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c292/ramcibella/Japon%20-%20Manga%20-%20Anime%20-%20Doramas/Manga%20y%20Anime/Yamato%20Nadeshiko%20Sichi%20Henge/Dorama/Kyoharu/th_Kyo-Kyo1.jpg (http://s29.photobucket.com/albums/c292/ramcibella/Japon%20-%20Manga%20-%20Anime%20-%20Doramas/Manga%20y%20Anime/Yamato%20Nadeshiko%20Sichi%20Henge/Dorama/Kyoharu/?action=view&current=Kyo-Kyo1.jpg)
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c292/ramcibella/Japon%20-%20Manga%20-%20Anime%20-%20Doramas/Manga%20y%20Anime/Yamato%20Nadeshiko%20Sichi%20Henge/Dorama/Kyoharu/th_Kyo-Kyo2.jpg (http://s29.photobucket.com/albums/c292/ramcibella/Japon%20-%20Manga%20-%20Anime%20-%20Doramas/Manga%20y%20Anime/Yamato%20Nadeshiko%20Sichi%20Henge/Dorama/Kyoharu/?action=view&current=Kyo-Kyo2.jpg)http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c292/ramcibella/Japon%20-%20Manga%20-%20Anime%20-%20Doramas/Manga%20y%20Anime/Yamato%20Nadeshiko%20Sichi%20Henge/Dorama/Kyoharu/th_Kyo-Kyo4.jpg (http://s29.photobucket.com/albums/c292/ramcibella/Japon%20-%20Manga%20-%20Anime%20-%20Doramas/Manga%20y%20Anime/Yamato%20Nadeshiko%20Sichi%20Henge/Dorama/Kyoharu/?action=view&current=Kyo-Kyo4.jpg)

The naked one i'll post later since i need to work out if i put it in just a link or not. And the references will have to wait until a next post.



chibi-s

That's right only those not knowing the manga can really enjoy it



Edenwest

I am working on your answer, should say answers but i can answer a little now.

Nope exactly what you point about Kyouhei is what doesn't make him useless for Sunako, if she tries to avoid him is because he affects her, they fight because he manages to get into her world, he has effects on her and she knows it, he makes her think, coming out of her complexes by confronting her. She only reacts to him in all aspects, there's not an action from Kyouhei that doesn't get an answer from Sunako, he is her equal.
With Yuki she is like a mother/sister, with him she can care without risks. Takenaga makes her confront herself and push forward specially regarding Kyouhei, but Ranmaru is just a test subject, he is atractive but none of his actions do anything on her, it's a kind of "ok wathever" guy to her and his bad points weight more for her than the good ones, but since he is a "friend" despite of himself.

Never heard the "we fight/reject the most what attracks/affects us the most" ? That's Kyouhei for Sunako, he is useful for her because she always learns something new through him. Ranmaru, since he doesn't provide anything new for her to learn is mostly useless.

About not comparing Kyouhei with Hiroshi, that's very importan, first personality: she just can't because he is the opposite personality wise to Hiroshi (the personality she has given Hiroshi, her comfort zone) if ever she compares Kyouhei to Hiroshi then Kyouhei will be totally into her world and part of it while Hiroshi will fade and dissapear. second: physique Kyouhei is the only one she has compared to the physical perfection of her dolls...

I will keep on working on the rest of your answer

[HMR1]

Thank you very much Ginoru !!! :<3:
(and yes, you really made me happy that day !)

Those days have been full of calamities. I hope your friends will be fine...

Those pics say it well !!!! Tomoko Hayakawa was inspired by Kyoharu's pics for some covers and scenes of the manga, reinserting the postures, and reinventing the clothes.

I'll try to help a little for this comparison with a few pics I found some time ago procrastinating in the web (and there are a lot !!! Thanks to all Kyoharu's fans...) http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/hmr1_bucket/KK.jpgFor me Kyoharu looks really alike Kyouhei even if I find the resemblance more obvious when his hair is dark than blond.

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/hmr1_bucket/KK2.jpgAh, ah... Surprising this association Ranmaru/ Kyoharu ?! I'm teasing ! About my comparison Kyouhei/Ranmaru, yes, I agree with you. There aren't so many moments when the two characters are linked... For me it's a symbolic association, and I totally agree with what you said about ideal types.

Here a pic about the dazzling attractiveness of Kyouhei...
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/hmr1_bucket/KK3.jpg

And here, Kyouhei as "object" (from c69) :
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj309/hmr1_bucket/KK4.jpg

That's all for the moment... You talked about a naked one... I have two in my mind... but I won't spoil... ; )

Now, I'll have to work on all the comments you and edenwest made... Aaaah... What an interesting week to come !!!

[castoria]

This is all new to me. I had no idea Tomoko Hayakawa's, Wallflower's Kyohei, was inspired by a real person. She did an excellent makeover into one of my favorite manga/anime characters. Thank you so much for all that fascinating info! Because I don't have allot of on-line time, I would have never known except by way of this post. I mentally bow to you.

[edenwest]

Hi ! sorry for my belate reply !!! Thanks Ginoru and HMR1 for the pictures of Kyohei and Kyoharu: they’re fascinating! :<3:I need to think about them! By the way, I really hope your friends are fine, Ginoru… And thanks again for your interesting remarks! I had a great time thinking about them!

Nope exactly what you point about Kyouhei is what doesn't make him useless for Sunako, if she tries to avoid him is because he affects her, they fight because he manages to get into her world, he has effects on her and she knows it, he makes her think, coming out of her complexes by confronting her. She only reacts to him in all aspects, there's not an action from Kyouhei that doesn't get an answer from Sunako, he is her equal. […]
Never heard the "we fight/reject the most what attracks/affects us the most" ? That's Kyouhei for Sunako, he is useful for her because she always learns something new through him. Ranmaru, since he doesn't provide anything new for her to learn is mostly useless.


Of course that’s how we see him… but does Sunako see him the same way? She’s very dense/ denying, don’t forget!
First of all, they are not equals in her eyes: a dazzling creature is kinda superior to a dark being (see in chapter 3, she says to Noi “please don’t associate me with your kind as being in the same species”; then, “she went against the will of god”… and obviously chapter 75 “you’re too beautiful and too radiant… I’ll continue to distance my world from yours, since they’re so far apart…” and then Kyohei states that they’re “the same”). Here, we can notice two evolutions in her attitude: first, darkness and light are divided and light is apparently superior (she’s ugly and has been rejected), but she has developed a kind of pride as a dark being, after living and fighting with Kyohei (darkness has its own beauty, more and more obvious, with the handsome vampire for instance). Second progression: she seems to forget about this inferiority when she’s at ease with him, when she doesn’t stop and think (when they are fighting, playing, making fools of themselves, when she’s herself with him without restrictions). But she doesn’t realize it…
So, I still believe that for her he’s quite useless: he’s the teaser, always stealing her things (her ice cream, her Sleepy Hollow DVD in C39, even her pyjama in C70!), always fighting her, he’s been in the past dragging her in plans to have free rent (the swimming competition, for example), he’s really messy (C77), he’s demanding for food, he makes her do chores, and so on… This guy is clearly a nuisance for her!!! See what she tells about his defects just before the kiss! Add that most of times she doesn’t pay more attention when he’s speaking than to the others and we can say Kyohei’s sometimes a “whatever” guy as you said about Ranmaru.
For example, when Kyohei is gone, her reaction is revealing : we can see that she misses him (she serves food for him, she thinks of him borrowing his DVD), but she only sees her culpability for what she told him… That shows her ambiguity.
Of course once again, that’s only a superficial aspect of her relation with him, but still… that’s part of the package, as well as his role of confident/ friend who makes her react. And not only because as you said "we fight/reject the most what attracts/affects us the most", although that is certainly one of the reasons (when she says that he harasses her) : that’s simply their daily way to interact… they’re being themselves… there’s probably in their relationship a subtle mixing between “I fight him/ I tease her because I’m attracted” and “I’m attracted because he/she’s the only one I can fight”, a combination between “love/hate” and “twisted communication by battling”…
I hope that makes sense…

With Yuki she is like a mother/sister, with him she can care without risks. Takenaga makes her confront herself and push forward specially regarding Kyouhei, but Ranmaru is just a test subject, he is atractive but none of his actions do anything on her, it's a kind of "ok wathever" guy to her and his bad points weight more for her than the good ones, but since he is a "friend" despite of himself.


I agree with you (and with HMR1), the Kyohei/Ranmaru’s similarities seem only occasional… Nevertheless, it made me thought about one particular aspect of the guys: Kyohei has a peculiar status, he seems to be the character who concentrates every possibility. I mean, he’s quite ‘raw’, his bad attitude masks in fact that he refuses to choose a real behaviour as a man. Being rude, childish, rejecting every girl is a way to deny his manhood, just like Sunako erases her being a woman.
Then, his friends may appear as possibilities, as examples of who he could be or have been, hence the parallels, contrasts and similarities…
- Takenaga and his relationship with Noi is the example of our more official couple. He first kisses her in the train from the hot springs: after Sunako has been reminded of her kiss with Kyohei. The two girls end in shock in their seats…
They kiss at the Halloween party; for that party, Kyohei made for Sunako the decorations… and Takenaga kisses Noi because she says that she would always accept him, even if he doesn’t shower. Acceptation despite of imperfections is also a major topic in Sunako and Kyohei’s story.
Finally, Takenaga’s confession (sort of) is connected to Sunako and Kyohei (because of the cover and the end of chapter).
Thus, we could say that Takenaga somewhat impersonates what Kyohei could be if he accepted to have a steady relation with her.
- Ranmaru then would be an image of what Kyohei would be if he accepted his admirers; he’s the exact opposite of him (another kind of “lady killer”, as HMR1 pointed out)… Tamao appears quite late in the manga but is surrounded by the same fairy tale aura than our dear soon-to-be couple : she’s the princess of the sleeping forest… Tamao’s character is between Noi (pretty, nice and they become friends) and Sunako, who lakes of confidence and is emotionally involved with someone she thinks she cannot have.
- Yuki is who Kyohei could be if he simply changed his attitude. Yuki is gentle and globally more acceptant of the others. He is implicitly compared with Kyohei because they’s not wealthy like Takenaga and Ranmaru; he’s the first to try to help Kyohei when arriving at the mansion, then the first who makes him begin to change his attitude; their family situation is opposed in chapter 37. Moreover, Yuki keeps faith in his love for Machiko even when separated (even though he’s jealous): he incarnates the strength of a link which goes through difficulties and insecurities, like Kyohei and Sunako’s link becomes also stronger after they learn to face problems together. Then, Yuki somehow represent a sort of option if Kyohei could learn to have more confidence in others…


About not comparing Kyouhei with Hiroshi, that's very importan, first personality: she just can't because he is the opposite personality wise to Hiroshi (the personality she has given Hiroshi, her comfort zone) if ever she compares Kyouhei to Hiroshi then Kyouhei will be totally into her world and part of it while Hiroshi will fade and dissapear. second: physique Kyouhei is the only one she has compared to the physical perfection of her dolls...

Yes! Moreover, we can say that Kyohei may nevertheless have occasionally the same comforting role (hugging her when she’s desperate)… when Hiroshi isn’t here anymore (when he was kidnapped). Or, without hugging her closely, when she is deeply insecure about her past (the moon viewing)… that is to say when her darkness cover is not deep enough…
And it’s also interesting that the essence of the comfort she can feel with this creature of light is present in her collection: the real Kyohei would be a marvellous dead body (chapter 4), then, in the following chapter, he begins to be associated with John… She needs to associate his beautiful naked body with a corpse, his beauty belonging to darkness then. But him, his words, are linked with a skull, a part of a corpse, of course, but also the raw reality behind his good looks (like Kyohei reveals the truth with his words –there are others guys, another love is still possible- and like his true inner beauty is revealed behind the usual indifference)… And John is a simple skull, not a skeleton: he doesn’t have a body. In the same way, Sunako disconnects the trust she can feel for Kyohei with his physical presence.



In a totally different topic, I’ve begun reading a little ago Full House Kiss (Chibi-s talked about it some time ago comparing it with PGE). I found it interesting to properly compare this quite typical and basic (and pretty boring…) shoujo manga with PGE, since the stories present some similarities…
Full House Kiss is the story of a 15 year-old girl, Suzuhara Mugi, who has a secret. She has lost her parents and her only sister has disappeared; the only clue about her that Mugi has is connected to a private and prestigious high school and Mugi decides to infiltrate it. But she fails and runs into a “prince”, Midou, who’s an elite student at this high school… even though the guy has an arrogant attitude, he accepts to make a deal with our average girl: if she becomes a maid at his house, he will help her. Therefore, she becomes an under-age teacher at the school and is forced to hide her double life as a maid in the house where live the smug Midou Kazuya, who is already a businessman, along with the three others more popular guys in the school, Iori-kun, a former kabuki actor, Sei, a mysterious and quite devilish musician and Asaki, a harsh but eventually kind-hearted woman hater…
The daily situation looks like Sunako’s in PGE: a girl forced to share a house (and to clean it) with four dazzling princes, even though there seem to be a lot a big differences in the situation…

1° THE STORY-TELLING

FK was a video game in PlayStation, in 2004, before being a manga (if I’m not mistaken…). That influences the story-telling:

-The manga has then a structure analogous to a video game, a linear story with the point of view of a protagonist and a progression, with a beginning and a clear end… Whereas PGE is cyclic, it doesn’t really have a linear story-telling (the lady-making is eventually quite vague and is no more the principal motor of action, which is more the love between Kyohei and Sunako): it seems more like a funny pretext to give us occasions to observe our character’s reactions and for the mangaka to play with them… Thus, there is a multiple point of view, we follow them from outside, then the irony upon everyone…
Which lead us to a question: who is the protagonist in PGE? Are the four guys, as they appear in the beginning? But, now, they tend to appear as two groups : Kyohei vs the three guys, who plot against him… the three friends are more like a supportive/teasing background… So is Kyohei our main character like he is in the drama? But we don’t know what he thinks and we don’t really follow him around…Is Sunako our heroine? We don’t know either systematically what she really thinks. In fact, in this battle of wills between lady-to-be and lady-makers, who do we want to win? We don’t want Sunako staying loveless and insecure, nevertheless we don’t want either her to be a sweet and stereotypical lady… At the same time, we can’t say that PGE is the story of a whole bunch of friends: they became friends quite recently and there are too much tension between the characters for them, they are a disparate group…

-In FHK, the heroine takes action: the situation involves four guys and one girl. One of the themes is that the girl tries to bring together the boys as a family (they are not related). The guys don’t interact with each other, they begin to accept her as a response to her actions (she has problems and they help her). They somewhat become a family but their link is anticipated.
In PGE, the feeling of being a family comes without being planned: the four guys join to make the girl enter a social group (being a lady is being admired and accepted by society), they become family together in the process.
In both case, the importance of eating food together is showed. But the role of Mugi is imposed (she has to become a maid to find her sister). In the other hand, Sunako is supposed to clean the house and to cook, but she choose to play this part (she first cook after Kyohei coming in search for her), so she defines herself her role in their group (in the restaurant chapter, Kyohei is angry because he thinks she is unwilling to cook for them; she finally says that she loves to).

-the female protagonist is the centre of action : everything revolves around her; the four guys are your potential lovers; in PGE, Sunako is also the centre of the story, but the guys (except Kyohei) have more with her a group bond. Therefore, there’s two different approaches: a simple shoujo, where the girl attracts the adolescent identification (she’s a positive, nice, pretty character, in quest of something) in the middle of a inverse harem… the situation is quite affirmative, each guys is available, Mugi, even though she doesn’t really realise it much of time, only needs to choose between them and her choice is the main question (except the sister problem). Whereas PGE is more complex, more questioning. Sunako normally doesn’t have any option in love: she’s dark and ugly… but even in her chibi form, she has more than one admirer. Yet among her housemates, there is no competition about her: the guys see her as Kyohei’s girl. In fact, there is a subtle playing between no possibility at all in love (Sunako’s point of view), a lover chosen for her (Kyohei in the guys’ point of view), and occasionally outsiders lovers (the prince, the gang leader, the guys at the beach, Sarasara-kun)… Once again, multiple points of view blurring the reality…


2° THE GUYS : INTERACTIONS

a) clichés characters

In FHK, the four housemates incarnate the most usual types of attractive guys seen by girls:

- the prince : riche, more handsome, smarter, good in everything, the perfect man : Midou
- the tough guy who hides a gentle nature: Asaki
- the attractive friend/ confident (a light version of the typical best friend): Iori
- the mysterious teaser: Sei

These stereotypes of characters are combined with usual social categories of popular men in romantic stories:
-the businessman, Midou
-the sportman, Asaki
-the famous actor (former kabuki actor), Iori
-the artist (musician) : Sei

In PGE, we have similar clichés: the four friends are parodies of ideal men, intellectually and physically, they accumulate ideal elements, but that’s comical and ironical
-the perfect guy : smart (attitude) and naturally elegant (physical)… Takenaga: a prince, good in everything, but his coldness is compensated by his shyness with Noi
-the bad boy (attitude) with sex-appeal (physical)… Kyohei: a tough guy who is almost systematically beaten up by Sunako, and his kind heart is mitigated because his words keep being harsh and he refuses love
-the guy full of seduction and charm (attitude) / (overly) fashionable (physical)… Ranmaru: but he’s ridiculous. Nobody takes him seriously, except in love matters, his exclusive speciality…
-The nice guy (attitude) with feminine beauty (physical)… Yuki: but he’s pretty ridiculous too, he’s always crying and everybody treats him like a kid.
Their characters are ironically used, because they always have the defect which will question the ideal they incarnate, making them more human and endearing. In FHK, the guys’ defects are part of their perfection: the coldness is almost obligated in a elite businessman in shoujo. Toughness and mystery are also popular characteristics.

Moreover, we can already notice that the two series of clichés don’t correspond totally: Ranmaru could be somehow the attracting friend (he’s the most motivated to make them a couple), yet, in fact, he’s clearly more a playboy than a confident: Sunako’s male confident is Kyohei; her most obvious friend is Yuki.
And Yuki doesn’t match any of the four FHK guys. He resembles more to the girl: he wants them all to get along like a family (the “we must not fight” behaviour), he’s from a normal family and has at first an external vision of the mansion and its rich housemates (like in FHK), he’s very kind, just like Mugi.
At the same time, the fourth character in FHK, Sei-kun, resembles someway to Sunako: he doesn’t want to bond with the others in the house, he loves horror items and ghost stories, wants an evil mascot with a name (cf. Hiroshi-kun), likes playing Beethoven at the piano (cf. Sunako ! « I can only play Chopin »). Nevertheless, he’s always smiling, so he could have been like Yuki if he were more communicative and participative in the house. He has problems with his parents (Kyohei), and enjoy women (Ranmaru). Besides, his teasing (irritating her and flirting) role with Mugi is taken by Kyohei with Sunako…
That’s why it’s almost impossible to make FHK and PGE correspond: Asaki’s a bad boy, but is easily scarred and tender, he’s sweet (loves cats), shy, believes in love… he’s Kyohei with Yuki’s personality. Kazuya is cold, intelligent and elegant, he’s a businessman and has a lot of influence, but at the same time he also teases her and helps her… he’s Takenaga with Kyohei’s attitude! Iori seems at first close to Ranmaru, physically; he’s a former actor in kabuki (played the Tales of Genji = model for Ranmaru with Tamao), he teaches her how to put on make up and takes her face just like Ranmaru when he almost kisses her, he teaches her how to talk properly… but, he’s also more mature (he’s older) and he’s a good friend: Ranmaru with Takenaga’s aura…

b) romantically involved: four vs one!
Yet, even though the clichés elements are displayed differently between the two series, the romantic parts concentrated in Kyohei are splitted between the four boys in FHK. They share the same role of charming prince, protective and caring when in action (to save her). These clichés almost seem exchangeable:
Asaki and Kazuya are the two favorite potential lovers. Asaki, the tender bad boy,
- teaches her how to dance and blushes
- has Kyohei’s favourite line, « guess I have no choice», in chapter 7, when he takes a kitty at home… just before Mugi sees him (almost) naked in the bathroom!
- he almost kisses her in a closet at school… in PGE, Kyohei kisses his dark housemate in the infirmary
- he helps Mugi to go to a party in his bike/ Kyohei rides a bikes after the Halloween party dragging Sunako… before ending in the hospital!

Kazuya
– calls her continuously idiot
- teases her and tells that she’s “not very ladylike”
- helps her to pass a wall, lifts her in his arms (« you’re heavier than you look »)… cf. Noi’s expectations in chapter 74
- he protects her from a brocken window (chapter 74 again)

Iori : carries her in public covered by his jacket, and everybody chatters (chapter 53 in PGE)

Sei-kun : dragges her in a date, tells her « it’s fun being with you »… and he asks her out

As we can see, every of these elements in connected with Kyohei and is almost every time used with a parody intention in PGE.

c) Interactions and superiority

It’s indeed surprisingly difficult to compare precisely every guys in FHK and PGE. We can in fact say that the two mangas deal quite differently with shoujo expectations: the typical characters and the expected moments are used but for conveying an entirely different impression.
I said before that the men in FHK reflect not only ideal attitudes but also social positions. In PGE, the characters are not really socially characterized. Sure, Ranmaru, Takenaga (and Tamao and Auntie) are rich, but that doesn’t matter in their group. The friends are the four princes of their high-school, they are equals in spite of their social rank: they are a group against the girls attacking them. That ambiguity is even more visible with Sunako : we don’t really know if she’s from a wealthy family. Her aunt and her parents seem rich, but she doesn’t act like an heiress : she’s always saving money for the house. She isn’t too far from Kyohei in that matter (remember her attitude with her classmates when shopping).
In FHK, Mugi is clearly in a lower position: she’s an average girl and she’s a maid…

In the same way, in PGE, although Sunako sees them as dazzling, the guys aren’t superior to her. Kyohei thinks she’s cool when she fight. The tutoring in quite edifying here : Takenaga tutors Sunako, but Kyohei is not better than her… In FHK, Mugi always needs to be tutored by the guys (Iori or Kazuya). She’s not as smart as them…

That’s quite interesting, because in FHK, the girl is then systematically inferior to her four princes, socially and intellectually. She’s a very nice girl, but does not look very useful for equality between sexes… On the contrary, our ‘real’ prince in PGE, Kyohei, is the most imperfect of the guys…


3° TWO GIRLS

On the other hand, we have two ways of dealing with the classical shoujo heroine with Mugi and Sunako…

a) clichés about the female protagonist

- at school, the two of them are isolated. At first, Mugi is despised by her students (she acts as a teacher), while Sunako is gloomy: her schoolmates are afraid, then curious about her. In both case, people don’t know that they live with the four princes, who are idealized in both schools. But in PGE, they don’t take this seriously and this peculiarity is quickly revealed.
- the two girls have a secret they reveal to the guys [/I[I]](usual motor of action in shoujo): Mugi has lost her sister who has mysteriously disappeared, Sunako has been convinced that she’s ugly, she has somehow lost herself.
- playing with appearances: at house, Mugi is a maid (her hair is loosen) , at school, she’s a teacher (she wears glasses). In fact, she corresponds roughly to two functions of women in society: the housewife (with whom the guys flirt)/ the working woman. Sunako is more centred on relationships, with herself and with others: at home, she wears baggy clothes and her face is uncovered; outside, she swears her uniform (at school) and her hat. At first, she used to hide with her fringe in both places. Her appearance also alternates between chibi and real/ beautiful.

b) finding a place in society

There are deeply two types of questioning:
-In FHK, the questions concern the others: her quest, the love/ friendship she finds at home. These questions (what happened to her sister/ which guy will she choose) are external, they involve the girl but don’t make her really change. Mugi doesn’t truly evolve in the story (what she learns, acting like a lady for a party, through tutoring sessions, don’t deeply influence what she is). Everything keep being quite superficial, because the main topic is simply to fill the ideal of being loved and to marry.

-PGE is more psychological : the questioning is internal. External episodes can influence Sunako, but that’s for alimenting her searching about herself and thus the others… In fact, the two mangas don’t show the same vision of relationships with the others. Here, one’s true self and the vision one has on him/herself influence the way one can consider people. The definition of happiness is then obviously more complex.
At the same time, the guys evolve too in PGE, but not like in the other manga: in FHK, an external factor, the girl, is introduced between them. In PGE, the same goal pulls them together, because changing Sunako’s appearance and her vision of herself makes them think about themselves too. Thus the decisive comparisons Yuki/ Ranmaru (c55) and Kyohei (c37), Takenaga/ Kyohei (c31), Ranmaru with everyone (c41), Kyohei/ Takenaga (when studying like a nerd) and Ranmaru (when he becomes a pheromone bomb) and the recurrent topic of the guys parodying themselves…
Then two ideas: the image of oneself in relation with ones exterior image (chibi Sunako/ chibi and beautiful) and the way of considering oneself in relation with the way to react to others and the definition of the world this includes (light and darkness and them becoming closer).

c) two ideals for women

Indeed, the two manga offer two model of woman. FHK shows a woman fitting social criteria, traditional at home and more modern with her workin woman part. Mugi is an actualized version of the yamato nadeshiko: pretty, nice, a good housekeeper, she accepts quite easily that the guys have power on her (especially Kazuya), she has social skills, is family-centred and devoted.
Sunako, in the other hand, is quite an antithesis of this model : unknowingly, she has skills for being a great housewife, she’s beautiful (in a kimono she’s ironically the perfect example of a classic Japanese beauty), she somehow reserved (although it’s more lake of confidence), she has the sense of family. But these criteria are countered by her refusal to being dominated by the guys’ decisions, she’s scary and very peculiar… In PGE, the ideal is more a personal achievement, an internal equilibrium; implicitly, there even may be a critic of the traditional image of women wanted by society, because this ideal of inner achievement is accessible for Sunako and for the guys.



To conclude, the two images of happiness shown in the two manga may propose two vision of the world: both times, an outsider is lying (being a lady for her aunt/ being a teacher) for integrating society. This classical theme for adolescent is developed differently:
-In FHK, the moment when she lives her double life is only a parenthesis, destined to finish when she will find her sister and choose her lover before successfully entering society with her influent and valorised prince. She’ll probably be a good wife and a lady: the social bonds are based on the respect of conventions.
-In PGE, these conventions are refused. Her life with the guys is not secret, everybody knows that she isn’t integrated (even her aunt). The more important social bonds are based on personal acceptation : unlike in FHK, her potential lover isn’t the richer, the prince, but the one who has nothing except physical qualities and who doesn’t wat to use them. And the ideal vision of their couple appearing in the manga is as poor newlyweds…


Sorry, I know this was quite pointless, but it was fun to compare!! Thanks for reading!!!!:)

[fughawzi]

Hopefully this is the right place to ask and I'm sorry if it has already been answered, but how often does a new PGE manga chapter come out? I only just started reading it so I have no idea when the author releases a new one.. When is the next chapter expected?

As I said before, I just discovered this manga and read through all the available chapters in three days while I was stuck in bed sick. I absolutely love it. I started reading it because it was recommended if you liked Ouran. Are there any similar crazy ones out there? (Hopefully this is okay to ask? Sorry, I haven't slept yet)

[kaizoku_gurlz]

may i know when chapter 99-104 will be released (sub)?

[kyoheixsunako]

CHAPTER 100. BEST CHAPTER EVER!!!! I ALMOST FAINTED WITH GIDDINESS AT THE END. BIGGEST REVELATION EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT TRULY IS THE "CLIMAX" OF THE SERIES :)

For die-hard fanatics, here you go :)


http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/3026/yamanadev25c100034035.jpg



Double post merged. Links to download sites, forums etc. are not allowed. Hence, the link was removed. Also, please, use the spoiler tag feature when posting spoiler pictures.

[Cireus]

may i know when chapter 99-104 will be released (sub)?

Inappropriate place to ask this question. Post without reading the forum rules FIRST again, and you'll be banned.

[aleh]

cant wait til its updated. i kinda stopped being interested in this series but i recently watched the live action drama and became hooked and obssesed once more. yay for the future chapters to come

[edenwest]

Hi! Sorry for keeping silent for so long, the last months have been quite hectic! But I’ve tried to keep in touch with the forum!

So, first of all, I’ve been thinking a little more about the resemblance between Kyohei and Kyoharu… It leaded me to some questions: is there a turning point in that similarity? Kyoharu was Kyohei’s model since the very beginning, but did this slow down since then (he’s coping Kyoharu’s poses mostly in the covers, but, as HMR1 has pointed out, the covers have changed and are more included in the action now)? Is Kyohei more “autonomic” since he has been having a more defined and subtle personality?

Moreover, he seems to look like his model when he’s pictured in the covers or in his “radiant” moments…
For the “shinning” aspect, we can see for example that the picture of Kyohei stretching and wearing a scarf is a mixing of at least two pictures of Kyoharu, for the pose and for the outfit. The scarf, that Kyohei wears more than once (in the school festival, for Halloween, in the cover of chapter 64, Pheromone Bomb, which is also inspired by Kyoharu) came from the singer. That detail is very revealing, since the similarity seems indeed more obvious when our manga character is seen in the others’ point of view:
- the covers (dissociation from the story, in the reader’s point of view)
- the bright moments, seen by Sunako (with the scarf, when cooking hamburgers),
- seen by his friends in TV when harassed by the Black Lizard (as a sex object).
Each time, Kyohei’s aspect is frozen by someone’s eyes, mostly Sunako’s and ours … the same idea appears indeed in the covers, since they are closely related to photography, in the beginning at least: the guys are posing, or pictures of the characters appear in the cover, showing the guys’ past, Sunako’s childhood and Kyohei’s too – by the way, these two pictures (covers of c21 and c38) contrast, because she had an happy childhood while he hadn’t, and because the two of them still look like what they were… Sunako is still a chibi creature although she’s no more trusting and naïve, she has changed, whereas Kyohei is still childish and has the same behaviour (he hits when harassed).And we can now see that other covers too are related to pictures, real pictures this time, of Kyoharu.

Therefore, the likeness with Kyoharu is highly symbolic. It’s associated with a recurrent arc in the manga, the way others see you: Sunako sees herself as chibi, the others sees her as scary or as a gorgeous young woman, depending on circumstances. Here, we can say that Kyohei’s beauty depends also of an external vision. In fact, he’s inspired from Kyoharu’s pictures which are already very deeply thought for conveying, by the pose, the outfit (or lake of), a precise impression of beauty, nonchalance and sexiness. Kyohei’s image aims to give us that same impression, but the mangaka doesn’t simply copy Kyoharu: his pictures only serve as a basis, a preliminary idea, which is mixed with others, remodelled. Using a picture which is definitely an act, she makes it even more artificial, in a curious mise en abîme… The underlying meaning is clear: the way people see Kyohei’s radiance is as far from his reality as Sunako’s chibi form is from her true self…

Thus, associating Kyohei with an established idol may have three aiming:

1) Kyohei’s beauty is defined: he is compared to an emblem (assimilation)
2) His popularity is explained: the fangirls and the readers can see themselves in the real fans (projection)
3) But here Kyohei’s situation is the total opposite of his model. He rejects attention and his popularity is showed from the inside. We see what he can feel of being chased after and idealized, from behind the scene… Then the mangaka asks implicitly to the reader if these way of behaving as fans is fine, she somewhat question a social system, using humour and parody (identification).



I’ve also decided to post a little analyse about the food arc… it’s quite rushed and incomplete but it’s meant as kind of (already belated) birthday present to HMR1 :<3:… so, ahead with it and feel free to complete or critic!


I Metaphor of affection

To cook for/ to eat food cooked by someone involves a deeper meaning: like in the school competition and the common love bento, giving food and cooking for someone is usually meant as a proof of affection.
In the case of Sunako and Kyohei, cooking for/ eating food cooked by somebody is a matter of giving/ accepting feelings, it reveals a lake of something in each of them: for Sunako, it’s accepting to give her affection (her passion for cooking might represent the affection she could give and keeps bottled), to love or to make friends again. For Kyohei, it’s accepting to receive affection (him loving to eat could symbolise his lake of genuine love, like in the kotatsu chapter).
So between them, it’s a give and take: theirs insecurities towards the other(s) are symbolized by the food. One’s fear corresponds to the other’s one…

This affection can also be the feeling of being a family: they eat together the New Year meal, around the kotastu or using the fondue. There’s the same meaning of concern when Sunako cooks a healthy meal for Noi and Tamao, when they are heartbroken and even though they have dragged her in their beauty frenzy.
Baking a cake with Yuki’s siblings is also depicted as a sincere gift for the twins’ mother, in opposition with the superficial gift, the bag they stole, motivated by a bit of jealousy from her. Thus the cake is a proof of true love. And Kyohei is moved with the vision of Sunako and the kids in the kitchen, because they form an ideal picture of a family…

Then, Kyohei cooking has a similar meaning: he tries to cook a meal after looking for Sunako at the beginning, and at the school festival. The second time, he hates it, because he attracts too much attention: his way of cooking reflects his rejection of the others, while in the first time, he tries to compensate for making Sunako leave. These two occurrences show indeed the link between cooking and affective behaviour.

Some elements appear regularly, creating a pattern, a particular world full of self-references: for example cooking fish somewhat represents coming out of the darkness.
- the first time she cooks for them, she’s “murdering” a fish;
- they go fishing for the “queen of darkness”: that’s also a way of leaving the darkness, because the deal involves the horror items. This moment also is part of another close arc of “bonding by fishing”, with Hokkaido and the cat chapters, where they seem to enjoy being together.
- she leaves her room and cooks a big fish after an intensive horror training in the Paramount restaurant chapter…

Another example is the French food. The characters systematically end up preferring Japanese food to this typically gastronomic one. Symbolically, the “natural” is chosen over the more valorised by society, in the Paramount restaurant and in the prince chapters…
The food metaphor here is related to the manga message: it’s better to be his true self (the “rice radiance”) than to become artificially what society praises…


II Sharing food

Kyohei and Sunako have a particular connection with food, which is associated to their peculiar relationship. Food definitely characterises them bond.

a) Feeding and offering food to the other:

First of all, Kyohei feeding Sunako:

- Scolded by the guys for insulting her, Kyohei feeds Sunako onigiri (almost by force) in chapter 5, just before their first real talk (when he says about her first love “he isn’t the only guy in this world”).
- He also feeds her green mochi when she is really depressed in the Memory Door chapter, which it a quite special occurrence. He seemed indeed ready to kiss her before the guys interrupted. Is that only a trick for readers? Or did he try to cover this attempt to kiss her by shoving mochi in her mouth?
- they offer chocolate to the other twice : when she’s “dumped” by Sarasara-kun, and when they’re studying until exhaustion in an glacial room. Both cases could be seen as references of the sweet typhoon, where he says “I’ll buy you as much as you want when we get back” when she almost drowned because of the chocolates…

Then, they (mostly Kyohei) try to comfort the other:
- when Sunako is heartbroken because of her first love (twice) or because of Sarasara-kun(or so Kyohei thinks) … but then, Kyohei’s obviously more romantic: he seems jealous and rushes to comfort her, while he only tried to cheer her up before because he saw her in a gloomy mood.
- in the second possibility, when they are in danger of dying (the typhoon, the cold). In both, there is an obvious humour (during the typhoon they are ridiculous, they keep fighting in a dangerous situation; while the study session is the opposite, they act dramatically in a quite daily situation… the mood is always incongruous and funny). But, she also almost died in chapter 5 (she almost starved to death) and in the Memory Door chapter, she was searching medicines for “sleeping for eternity”. So in every of these cases, except for Sarasara-kun’s dumping, he really saves her life. Food is here quite a symbol of affection and hope: in a way, he seems to feed her with the essence of life.

Now, Sunako giving food to Kyohei. Well, the examples here are less obvious, because she continually cooks for him (and the others). Nevertheless, we can notice that she sometimes gives him what he asks for:

- when he’s ill, she gives him everything he demands (c3) (why? She didn’t want to take care of him after all…)
- when he has convinced the others to clean the pool during summer heat and is craving for curry (c15)
- when he has run away she makes shrimp for him (c 39)
- the mochi: she has made it for him, because he’s appeared when she was thinking of dying. In fact, mochi is used for both of them: she cooked it for him, he gave it to her.
- similarly, the shrimps in chapter 87. After the guys had “brainwashed” him, he saved her, hugged her and had been beaten up by her; while he’s full of doubts, the guys manage to convince Sunako that she’s beautiful. So, during Kyohei’s absence at the waterfall, she dresses up and makes shrimps for dinner. Ok, that’s an ordinary meal in the mansion, but she’s angry towards Kyohei, so why making his favourite dish? That could be because she feels bad for continuously beating him after the incident. Or, because she feels more confident toward him… in a kind of subconsciously seductive way. After all, she is not afraid to bringing him a tray to his room… that’s pretty ambiguous, I think. And the food is once more used another time: when he’s about to confess (we guess), she shoves a shrimp in his mouth. That’s actually one of the two times she feeds him directly (she seems about with the last chocolate in c95 but he hugs her before she could).
- Indeed, this involuntary seduction appears also in the second Christmas chapter, where a very drunk Sunako straddles Kyohei for shoving cake in his mouth… in a quite erotic way.

Things are more confuse with Sunako, like her feelings. Different aspects seem to be involved: culpability (when he’s sick ?), gratitude (the pool, mochi)… To put it simply, she acts in response to his actions, while he acts in correlation with her reactions.


b) Eating together

Unsurprisingly, Kyohei and Sunako sharing a meal is associated with them bonding. There are three times when they have “moments”, if I remember well:

- when they watch for the first time a movie together in Sunako’s room, in the beginning
- in their date, at a small yakitori restaurant (and Sunako cleans his shirt)
- they eat ham in their apartment and get poisoned…

We an notice a progression there: the first occurrence show that they can get along, in the second, they realise that they can have fun with the other and, in the third, that they actually enjoy living together…
I can’t help but making a parallelism : in French, a pal is called “copain”, that is to say “co-pain”, someone you share your bread (“pain”), your food with… sharing food is shown as the sign of true friendship. But “copain” is also commonly used for boyfriend… and we see the same symbolism and double meaning with Kyohei and Sunako: they bond while sharing meals, but there is always an ambiguity, because their eating together occurs in situation that are usually romantic. Watching a movie in a girl’s room and even more going on a date and living together, these are couple activities.

c) stealing food from the other
Another aspect of this obsession with food is that they constantly steal food from the other. And that is pretty revealing, I think, because, by stealing the food, they are indeed really eating the same food, as in trying to bit the food the other is eating…

For example:
- they fight for the chocolates in the typhoon chapter
- Kyohei steals her green tea ice cream (c44). That’s very symbolic here: he wants to share with her (“sorry about that. There is still half left. You want it?”), while she wants to eat with Hiroshi-kun (“I was going to eat it with Hiroshi”). Hence Kyohei’s jealousy.
Even more obvious: two examples with strawberries. Sunako bits Kyohei’s strawberry crepe (c 63), drinks the chari-chari cocktail in his glass (c89). In any other more girly shoujo manga, that would be called “indirect kiss”, even if it isn’t explicitly mentioned in PGE…
And what about the shrimp Kyohei steals from her chopsticks in chapter 34? The idea of kissing is apparent here: we can see that she’s expecting to be kissed and gets angry when she realized that he hasn’t been intending to and that she was waiting for it to happen…
So we have the same hidden meaning than in the mochi chapter: food is the instrument of their becoming closer and, at the same time, a kind of substitute of something more intimate. Thus, then they really kiss, food isn’t in the way: in the infirmary, they have forgotten about the lobsters, even though they had accepted Noi’s schemes because of them…

Quite often, the symbolism of that food they share in different ways is made more evident by another recurrent idea, the last bit of food: the last chocolate in the study session, the last shrimps he steals from her,…
As a conclusion, we can say our dear mangaka enjoys playing with the different meaning people usually put under the notion of food:

- comforting someone
- showing someone gratitude
- bonding
- seducing someone (people say a girl can win a man’s heart by his stomach) and sometimes including a rather kinky erotic aspect
In fact, it’s almost impressive: she uses a well-known cliché food for making their relationship very personal, imaginative and unique.


III Favorite food


It’s rather surprising, in fact Kyohei isn’t in the beginning of the manga really obsessed with food: he likes to eat, alright, but usually talks much more about the free rent and the money.
In the same way at first, what he really likes are strawberries. In chapter 3, all the food he asks when sick Sunako is strawberry-flavoured, even Noi carries a basket full of strawberries for him… lately, there are only two reference to this preference: first in Harakuju, with a strawberry crepe for him and a strawberry-chocolate one for Sunako: here strawberries implicitly characterize Kyohei while chocolate represents Sunako, and they mention the two flavours go well together… without realizing the deeper meaning of this association. And the second occurrence is the strawberry chari-chari Noi gives him… and Sunako ends tasting it, like she does with the crepe. Moreover, we can wonder it is a coincidence if the Christmas cake they share has strawberries on top, among other fruits.

In these chapters, strawberries are said to be his favourite but, as the relationship between the two progresses, we can see a double evolution in Kyohei’s character. He becomes more food obsessed, while the rent and the money seem a bit less in his mind.
At the same time, he also develops a huge passion for fried shrimps, more specifically Sunako’s ones. The first time we see him eating them is in chapter 11 (if I’m not mistaken). He looks very cheerful (“Prawns, prawns! Really huge prawns!”) as they are celebrating the end of terms and Sunako has cooked for them.
Besides, shrimps become his characteristic favourite dish quite progressively, but it is clearly labelled as a meal especially for him since c39, when she tries to make him come back to the mansion.
We can see that shrimps have a deep symbolism. We may almost say they could sometimes be understood as a proof of feelings, of the complexity of their bond:
- two “almost kisses” scenes involve one single shrimp, when he steals it from her in the Paramount Restaurant chapter (c34). That idea is used again in the failed confession, when she shoves it in his mouth.
- Sunako offering him a full plate of them in a trail in sign of reconciliation: in chapter 39, she brings it to the Paramount Restaurant once again and the image is used one more time in the failed confession, in Kyohei’s inner picture of her and in reality.
Thus two themes used one after another in two chapters (single shrimp and almost kiss in c34/ trail of shrimps in c39, each time in the Restaurant), and intertwined in another (the failed confession) like an echo. Always the cyclic structure…


And, last but not least, Kyohei is the only character who hates a particular food: vegetables and particularly carrots. That’s said since the Hot Springs chapters. Sunako is continuously avoiding that he finds them in her dishes: in the market, the shopper tells Kyohei she’s a “very good person” because “she thinks about what the person she loves likes or dislikes when she buy stuff”… an exagerated statement, but she indeed cares about what people and particularly Kyohei think of her cooking. She is careful of chopping the vegetables in the cooking contest and uses his aversion for revenge…


Well, for Sunako, there is less to say. She’s far more obsessed by cooking than by eating. Nevertheless, she has generally the same taste than him: yakitori, amasake, simple and cheap things…

She seems to be a little enthusiastic with the green tea ice cream, because she has especially bought it for her and written her name on it and want to share it with Hiroshi-kun, meaning that’s something special. But that’s rather anecdotic in comparison with her favourite: chocolate.
The first mention of her obsession with chocolate appears when Yuki hands her cocoa in c13, but it’s really discovered in the Valentine’s Day chapter. After that, in the Sweet Typhoon chapter, the second Valentine’s chapter and the part with Sarasara-kun, that’s become a recurrent topic.
That preference is a little curious when you think of it: chocolate and Valentine’s Day are related to love and to give something (sweets and feelings). Once again, food represents affection, but there’s a trick, because there is no feeling involved in her liking it.
Unlike Kyohei, her ‘natural’ preference (chocolate) is more in evidence than her ‘symbolic’ one (shared green tea ice cream)




So, both of them have developed a metaphorical language without being really aware of it. Food is a symbol of their relationship and of their characters: in the crepe scene, Sunako is chocolate like Kyohei is strawberry, so them agreeing that the two flavours “go well together” is highly significant, except for them. When Kyohei takes her away from the prince and tell her not to forget about “the rice radiance”, he probably doesn’t mean it for himself, but the sentence is still adapted to his personal situation: he is the radiant rice whereas the prince is the croissants so he asks Sunako to chose between the two and to remain by his side.
In the same way, neither is aware of any deeper meaning in their sharing and giving food.

Thus, this cryptic and unconscious love language has a more obvious aspect, where food symbolizes their bond: acknowledging the other’s likes and dislikes, sometimes using them for revenge (= learning to know the other), giving something to the other (comfort and reconciliation). In its more hidden aspect, that food symbolizes them, when they go well together and in the recurrent almost kisses situations…


IV drinking together


Kyohei and Sunako drinking together has generally a similar meaning than them eating together. That crystallizes a “moment” between them, like when he hands her a glass of orange juice in the first party and the guys are saying that they look good together. When he drags her to the New Year festival for amasake or when they share milk juice after the public bath. In each cases, they drink together because they get along.
Nevertheless, there’s an added connotation. Indeed, the food, as said before, implies affection (meals shared, living with the others), love (the cliché of the bento and cooking for a special someone… although in PGE, that’s biased and subtly ambiguous), comfort or even self-sacrifice (comically: they give to the other the last bit of food)…
But, drinking together often involves alcohol and, then, the reader’s expectations are quite different. We don’t really hope for something sweet like with the chocolates, the amasake or the milk juice, but we expect more intimate, even a bit sensual. That’s an old ruse story-tellers continuously use to maintain hopes high about discouraging couples, since alcohol is known to disinhibit, they might let their guard down and finally make a move. Alcohol is comparable to possession in PGE, a parenthesis where they are not longer in control and, therefore, anything and everything could happen…

Thus, our peculiar hopeless couple is drunk three times and each of them involves classical “sexual” situations in shoujo mangas.
In the first Christmas chapter, she is celebrating with him, after he has saved her from a rapist. The context is hinted with love elements, expected in such a night, despite the fact that they are used comically : the guys are out for dates, Kyohei and her spend the evening together like a couple would have done, although she’s at first reticent. They share her snack and his champagne. And, when drunk, he comes closer and she’s embarrassed, blushing and trying to justify herself afterwards. Thus, there is a significant context, but the whole thing remains a parody ; the author is as always playing with our expectations.

The second Christmas chapter is more explicit and the sexual context is more obvious. Yuki has planned to go to a love hotel. Like in the first one, a few Halloween elements appear (the movie they watch), but the atmosphere is more cheerful, as she’s dressed as a rabbit and she celebrates with the guys. The situation is inversed by the way: during the first Christmas eve, she’s alone, then she’s with Kyohei and they end up with the guys, whereas here, she’s with the guys, then alone and she ends up celebrating with Kyohei… It’s more dramatic that way: she’s already in a cheerful and friendly mood and the both of them ending up alone is more unexpected, therefore our hopes of something finally happening are higher.
Indeed, she’s drunk and he begins to drink in reaction, just because she’s intoxicated, almost as if he wanted to forget himself like she’s doing. As a result, they end up in a compromising position: everything is settled for a intimate moment. But, as always, the story is a parody: they are in fact engrossed in their usual obsession, thinking about Sandy Claus and food…

And, last but not least, the chari-chari… we remain in a love hinted context: the previous chapter ends in a quite compromising situation; Noi comes to their hotel for sharing a kiss with Takenaga, various elements point to love and seduction. All the same, Takenaga sees Kyohei as a rival and thinks Noi making him drink is a sign of interest…
What surprised me a little when I read this part is that Sunako only shows curiosity for the strawberry chari-chari when she’s alone. Why didn’t she ask for a taste when Yuki and Ranmaru did? She has spent the whole evening busy with the food and only wonders for the mysterious cocktail when the others are gone… and drinks in Kyohei’s glass. I don’t know, isn’t it rather awkward after the beach fiasco and her previous anger towards him? Didn’t she want to ask him directly? Or was she too worried with the food to think about anything else (she knows the cocktail name however, so she was listening)? Anyway, she somehow steals it without him knowing and thus shares with him. Like before, in the end the two of them are drunk and playing together in a friendly way.

Therefore, these scenes with alcohol don’t show systematically more progress than the others, since nothing really happens… but the setting seems a bit more sexually connoted. The mangaka seems to settle things for getting our hopes high and better tricking us…



Ugh! It was awfully long and, as said before, rushed… sorry! And sorry for my English, I hope the whole thing makes (some) sense… :sweat:

[jacko79]

Hi i´m new here so i´m sorry if i´m not able to share thoughts as deep as the ones i´ve read (pretty amazing know i see PGE in a hole new way), i promisse i will read all over again the manga with the new perspective.

I love the idea of edenwest about the food because if we realize about just the mere meaning of feeding someone we can tell that Sunako it´s more that just a girl for them, here i´m not talking about the food it self, i´m talking about who provide the food and what we associate to it, because with the food we satisfied a need, we dont eat just for pleasure we eat because we need to, she is the one that provides welfare to them and at some point stability, she resembles the mother roll all the time because she is the perfect girl (in the inside because she never harass them, good cooker, she never ask nothing besides been alone, independient, good with kids and all the things because we love Sunako) the only problem with her is how she look at the outside and her weird likes.

And they know they can go with her when they need something even do ANY girl will be more than ready to please them they are always looking for her, because they feel protected with her.

I find funny how Sunako is playing most of the time the mother roll, i could go on with her like the mother model but... i´ve to make it as short as possible this time, i´m in a rush right now i wanted to tell something about the chapter 100 too but i´t seems that i´ll have o do it next time.

sorry if any idea was already post i´ve not read all of them yet, i hope you got the idea obviously english it´s not my mother language so sorry for that too.

and thanks for reading

It´s so great to be able to talk about PGE!!!

[blue-y]

I hope that after chapter 100, they will at least be more aware of their feelings! They are just so sweet together! I really think now that Kyohei and Sunako definitely have special feelings for each other! Watching that scene really tells people that Sunako cares for Kyohei and Kyohei too! I really cant wait to see more developments for this sweet sweet love! XD